Some opinions related to the latest community update.



  • I watched the community update today and I wanted to voice my opinions, even though unpopular and might get hit with a rock in the head for it.
    I think the store should allow both open-source and proprietary because proprietary software market is greater than open-source and very few(if any) would back up a full open-source store, the ideea is simple: more software more users more profits in the end for Ubports(I know your not here for profit, but more money gives opportunity to increase the team and in the end provide a better experience to a broader market)....in the end it all comes down to the money....it is a proven fact.
    Now I want to hit another more or less touchy subject, free software doesn't mean free-of-charge software, monetization should be integral to the software center and in my opinion it should have a pay-what-you-want option while leaving the developer the minimum price tag as choice.
    Before taking out your pitchforks and shove them down my throat(for those which hate this subject wholeheartedly), may I ask you to go and work for free and see how far it will get you? A well produced piece of software requires a lot of time, time which most open-source developers take of their spare time, time which could've been spent with friends or family and relaxing like normal people do unless they get revenue from the produced software and can work a normal schedule on the software and then relax like any other person.

    Lastly, related to the scope topic I think they should stay.

    As an end note, I am not trying to prove that someone is right and another is wrong, I am merely trying to open people's eyes that software is produced by human beings, be it proprietary or open-source and we all have needs(food, water, cloths, a roof over our heads), needs which cannot be fulfilled with free-of-charge work. Aswell I am not asking for money or for people to go around throwing money at every application developed out there, nor do I am pointing the finger at someone.
    All I am asking is don't go judging people for their beliefs, like some religios fanatics, just because you don't see eye-to-eye with them, nor this block should Ubuntu Touch chance at real succes.



  • Hi @vadrian89: You filthy scum ;-P sorry had to do this because your post is so defensive ;-D I don't think it should be since your opinion is worthwhile. However i have watched the Q&A and seem to have understood it in a different way than you since no-one ever said they would not be open to include something like monetisation options in the OpenStore. Also if 16.04 is here, snaps will work (probably) and the Ubuntu (Canonical) Snap Store will shurely be open to 1.monetisation and 2. proprietary stuff so the OpenStore can stay just as it is for 100% Open and Free (as in Speech as well as in Beer) software. I have to say that i can understand both parties, the devs that say they want some money out of their time as well as users that like to pay no money for it. But i think claiming that these are the two perspectives at hand is wrong since the bigger problem in my view is, that there are very many people out there that can not pay any money for an app they use only a very few times and some may not even have the money to pay something for their regularly used apps. Making it pay-what-you-want would generate some income, especially in a community like ours while not excluding the poor people from the party. But as i said, i can also understand that devs want some revenue out of there work, however (i am not saying that the following is good but that it is the current situation IMHO) they may for now be wrong at UBports/OpenStore because 1. the userbase is just too little (a few thousand people perhaps?) 2. very many community members (1st contact team, testers, docu team, ...) are not paid either even if they deserve it 3. Those who would join for the money would be probably be disappointed in how many people actually buy the app if it's not free/pay-what-you-want and would then go out on the internet telling everyone what a shitty platform this is and how they would advise everyone to avoid it...

    That's all i wanted to say about this, i hope you don't take it as a rant or something similar but as productive criticism of your arguments. As i said i fully support your statements that also FLOSS devs should be paid (fair)! I hope you don't feel attacked, if so please contact me to think about how to improve my arguing style so it is non-agressive!



  • @demokrit

    Nah, didn't felt attacked in any way your points are valid, the way I have layed it out is more confusing :D.
    The only way my post is related to the video is that they've touched the subjects of the openstore, monetisation....flashbacks came from reading posts in different places(G+, Linux news comments, UBports forum, etc) and I felt the need to voice it out....take it more as catalyst for this post. :D
    For example(the latest one), I recall someone on this forum thinking that Ubuntu Touch should focus on FOSS people while ignoring the other group of people(the regular mobile user), another on a news related to Linux(can't remember if it was related to phones ore just GN/Linux) someone mentioned that he loves that Linux isn't widspread for personal use and so on(these were just 2 I remembered of the bat)....
    Related to store, they said(if I recall correctly) it is up the owner of the store if he allows proprietary software and if he will add monetisation options(they just simply voiced their thoughts on monetisation options).
    After or before talking about monetisation they were talking about free software, if I remember correctly, hence some people might get the notion that free software = free-of-charge software.

    1. the userbase is just too little (a few thousand people perhaps?)

    For Ubuntu Touch? I think that's a number to high, maybe those following the development of Ubuntu Touch, but userbase I doubt it.


  • Community

    @vadrian89 said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    Now I want to hit another more or less touchy subject, free software doesn't mean free-of-charge software, monetization should be integral to the software center and in my opinion it should have a pay-what-you-want option while leaving the developer the minimum price tag as choice.

    Thank you.

    I don't think you need to be worried about this opinion at all. This is exactly what I believe, and most people who actually contribute to FOSS agree as well. Those who disagree enough to attack you probably don't contribute or are simply trying to troll for their own amusement.

    With that said, UBports is in a place where it can't profit monetarily from things like app sales, due to our (soon to be) nonprofit nature. People who put apps on the store, though? That's likely allowable.

    Really, I think we should watch the development of the Elementary App Center, which offers a "pay what you want" model for the participating applications. If that turns out to be successful, I would fully support the idea being used to improve the OpenStore. That's entirely the OpenStore team's decision to make, though. Otherwise, I see Patreon as a great way for people to be supported in a recurring way for the time they pour into their projects.



  • @vadrian89

    1. the userbase is just too little (a few thousand people perhaps?)

    For Ubuntu Touch? I think that's a number to high, maybe those following the development of Ubuntu Touch, but userbase I doubt it.

    https://stats.ubports.com/ give us today near twenty thousands devices using UBports images.

    Other devices, in thousands I believe, are always using Canonical images.



  • @libremax oh wow, didn't thought there are so many, thanks for letting me know.
    I know this is isn't much compared to the top 3 mobile OSes but I didn't expect souch people still using Ubuntu Touch, especially with the Libre Purism coming to the market....I'm glad I was so wrong in my speculation.


  • Community

    It is insane that there's almost 20,000 ubports devices in the world.
    and thats with only 3 core devices, and phones sold by bq and meizu.

    It'd be nice to see how many more devices get flashed when we get new 2017 devices on 16.04 with Halium.



  • @ChloeWolfieGirl True, also the fact that UBports and Purism intersecting also gives me high hopes for Ubuntu Touch.


  • Community

    @vadrian89 yeah, I'm more excited to see the support from matrix official, since they've worked a bit on an Ubuntu version of a Matrix client , before they get anything on the pureOS phone, and said that with pureOS, they'll try to keep supporting UBuntu Phone, and hopefully if everyone who commits to Purism, commits to Ubuntu Pone as much as Matrix, we'll be getting some really nice native apps!

    I also cant wait to see Ubuntu on the oneplus 3 and 5.



  • @ChloeWolfieGirl said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    Matrix client

    I've seen Marius's demo on the update, but I don't know much info about it, can you fill me in or give me a link?
    I'm sure as hell it isn't this :D


  • Community

    @vadrian89 said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    I'm sure as hell it isn't this :D

    A service for those that are engaging in risky sexual behaviour and sex workers in Norfolk.

    Yeah its not that :

    This is the matrix website https://matrix.org/

    Heres what Matrix wrote and have done on Ubuntu Phone, https://matrix.org/blog/2017/09/28/experiments-with-matrix-on-the-purism-librem5-starring-ubports-and-nheko/

    And they mentioned it on there weekly video talk here: https://youtu.be/9Iw2IaR_jpQ?t=4m10s

    Marius has been doing some demos and work on the uMatriks client, hopefully that gets really good, its quite a bit behind in development compared to the telegram app, but its definitly one of my favourite projects!



  • @ChloeWolfieGirl said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    Heres what Matrix wrote and have done on Ubuntu Phone, https://matrix.org/blog/2017/09/28/experiments-with-matrix-on-the-purism-librem5-starring-ubports-and-nheko/

    Thanks for this, was also interested on how to build Qt 5.9.x for Ubuntu Touch since the version in it is pretty low.(though I haven't looked into the matter)


  • Infrastructure

    @demokrit said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    naps will work (probably) and the Ubuntu (Canonical) Snap Store will shurely be open to 1.monetisation and 2. proprietary stuff so the OpenStore can stay just as it is for 100% Open and Free (as in Speech as well as in Beer) software. I have to say that i can understand both parties, the devs that say they want some money out of their time as well as users that like to pay no money for it. But i think claiming that these are the two perspectives at hand is wrong since the bigger problem in my view is, that there are very many people out there that can not pay any money for an app they use only a very few times and some may not even have the money to pay something for their regularly used apps. Making it pay-what-you-want would generate some income, especially in a community like ours while not excluding the poor people from the party. But as i said, i can also understand that devs want some revenue out of there work, however (i am not saying that the following is good but that it is the current situation IMHO) they may for now be wrong at UBports/OpenStore because 1. the userbase is just too little (a few thousand people perhaps?) 2. very many community members (1st contact team, testers, docu team, ...) are not paid either even if they deserve it 3. Those who would join for the money would be probably be disappointed in how many people actually buy the app if it's not free/pay-what-you-want and would then go out on the internet telling everyone what a shitty platform this is and how they would advise everyone to avoid it...
    That's all i wanted to say about this, i hope you don't take it as a rant or something similar but as productive criticism of your arguments. As i said i fully support your

    Let me add a few considerations:

    • If you want a store that collects money and gives it to the users, we need a legal form that is allowed to do so. Our upcoming foundation is not a legal form that can do business like this.
    • Money flow means tax flow. A part of this money needs to be declared. Plus we would need to take a fraction of the money for unning costs, tax advisory, costs of the legal entity etc.
    • Giving money to people on an international basis is hard, we need to transfer them the money with Paypal etc. Again more costs. Plus international bank transfers, even in small amounts, can be again a tax law concern. Lots of administrative headache.
    • How can we make sure that the App is only installed on one device if the author wants to charge device-based? Exactly, we need to track the devices uniquely, create signing keys and enforce a local store security like Android or iOS. lots of confinement coming up, lots of extra lockdown on the device itself.
    • Warranty: As soon as we go into paid services, people could demand their money back if our OS or an App goes crazy etc. We need a full insurance for crazy lawsuits, especially from the US.

    So do you really think this is the right way to go? Or just put a donation link in the store, and let the developer suggest a usual donation for his app wouldn´t be enough?

    BR



  • I missed this topic, but I see @Flohack has already provided solid arguments.

    elementaryOS is backed by "elementary LLC" which likely enables them to handle money on a solid legal base. I gave a quick look at "Houston", the app store back end used by elementary, and it seems they only support a single service, called Stripe. I haven't tested personally, but what I see is that developers might likely have to create a Stripe account in order to receive donations.

    This might add a further consideration: choosing a single service implies excluding others.

    We could offer e.g. PayPal support, but I'm mostly sure our developers might (legitimately) ask to support Patreon, Liberapay, Bitcoins, etc. Not to mention potential existing service bans in specific countries. It might end up in a huge amount of work, for an app store service that merely counts 400 apps and has not fully shaped yet.

    What we did in OpenStore, but we still need to expose it to the client app, is to let developers to specify a link of their choice for donations. This already enabled developers to received donations through the OpenStore web UI - e.g. Dekko.

    I'm in charge to get this done in the client app. Despite my expectations, adding a single button to an existing hiearchy of informations is not so trivial; as a consequence, it might take a while before we could roll this out in a new update, since we have to redefine how we provide other metadata.

    I'm currently redesigning the "Package Details" page in the OpenStore client, and the idea is to ensure that our "Donate" button would always be placed above the fold, in order to ensure that potential donors would not miss the opportunity to support the work of developers and contributors.

    Here's how the "Donate" button might look in future OpenStore releases

    Feedback welcomed!



  • @sverzegnassi said in Some opinions related to the latest community update.:

    Here's how the "Donate" button might look in future OpenStore releases

    Feedback welcomed!

    I like the positioning!

    But the icon confused me a little. My first association when seeing the heart icon was the "Heart rating" from the uappexplorer website. I'm not sure what the further plans of uappexplorer and/or heartrating are, but maybe picking an icon that has a stronger monetary association would be clearer anyway (dollar sign? pound sign?) and avoid the icon conflict with the heart rating.



  • @doniks

    Currency symbols are not neutral. Some may not like $, others € or £ or any currency symbol.

    Moreover, this could suggest that it is only possible to give in a certain currency.

    So I believe "Donate + heart icon", if not ideal, is less problematic.



  • @sverzegnassi

    Looks good, regarding the button, it could also be a gift box icon? Anyway, whichever is to be picked there will always have pros and cons against it.

    I think it might need more coloring, it feels a bit monotone.

    @Flohack

    How can we make sure that the App is only installed on one device if the author wants to charge device-based?

    I don't think it should be anything than per account, is there such a thing as per device? I haven't encountered it.

    So do you really think this is the right way to go? Or just put a donation link in the store, and let the developer suggest a usual donation for his app wouldn´t be enough?

    A donation button should suffice at the moment, but in the future when Ubuntu Touch will take the mobile front with a storm a store with an exact payment method should be implemented.

    Maybe an API + third party stores? This could take it out of your hands and entities, such as Canonical(if they would be willing) can set up shop for their snap packages and everyone can benefit from.....I might be dreaming away on this one :P



  • Thanks for your replies!

    I chose the 'heart' symbol since it was the nearest symbol in terms of kindness and appreciation. I like @vadrian89 's idea of using a gift box as icon; the bad news is that our Suru icons set does not provide the icon.

    If someone wants to contribute and create for us an icon that matches the Suru specs, the contribution would be very appreciated.

    As an alternative to the 'gift box' and the 'heart', we could still use the currency symbol as proposed by @doniks . QML provides an easy way to get the currency symbol according to user's locale. That way we can solve any ambiguity related to its usage.


  • Infrastructure

    @vadrian89 Be it per device or per account, but currently there is no way to restrict app installations. Anyone could pay for one license and distrubute it on many many devices. Thats also one reason why app purches would make no sense in OpenStore.

    BR


  • Infrastructure

    @sverzegnassi Can you give us a preview screenshot of how it could look like then to the user? ^


Log in to reply
 

Looks like your connection to UBports Forum was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.