We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely
-
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
TL;DR the project wastes resources reinventing the wheel with custom calculators and browsers while the core OS remains unusable.
Have you considered finding a way to help?
-
@Moem I did. No one even replied to my post about a year ago. Clearly the project maintainers to busy padding each others backs for making updated versions of calculator and browser. I dont know how many YEARS this project needs to understand what many other projects learned the hard way - DO NOT REINVENT Fing BROWSERS - its a dead end. And os makers making their own custom browser... instead of at least implementing decent keyboard suited for terminal (that is already exists in FOSS - unexpected keyboard).
I don't know where is it i can help here, when the whole building is on fire and it habitants acting as it is fine, making me a weirdo for pointing obvious flaws. -
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
I did. No one even replied to my post about a year ago
I saw your post and I did not understand it, it was clearly above my level of understanding.
I don't think anyone is patting each other on the back here. This is a project that's mostly run by volunteers and it's smaller than you may think. Our (barely a handful of) core devs are mostly busy getting VoLTE to run and fixing bugs in the new Noble release.
Most of the apps are made by volunteers who don't know enough about OS development to help with that, but still want to help. I'm grateful for their time.
I'm not sure what could be done better here. On a personal level, I enjoy the OS and it works for me.
In the end, we should all be using the OS that we like best. It's fine that you are choosing to use something else than UT. But why the whole song and dance?
-
@Moem
I'm grateful that you noticed my post and took time to have a conversation with me. Thank you for that!Exactly, it's a handful of devs, and I'm very frustrated to see that so much talent is wasted on maintaining:
Custom software Ubuntu Touch maintains:
- Morph Browser - Custom QtWebEngine browser without extension support (when Firefox Mobile exists with full extension ecosystem)
- Custom core apps: Calculator, Email client, Calendar, Clock, Gallery, Notes, File Manager, Music player, etc. - when mature FOSS alternatives exist (GNOME Calculator, Geary, GNOME Calendar, etc.)
- Click packaging system - alongside Snap support now (maintaining TWO packaging systems)
- Lomiri/Unity 8 shell - entire custom mobile UI/shell
- Ubuntu SDK - custom development toolkit
- Libertine containers - custom solution for desktop apps
Yes, I am impressed that people, the open source community, the UBports community in particular cracked VoLTE among other achievements like the 24.04 upgrade. These are REAL accomplishments.
But at the same time, the OS doesn't even ship a decent resource monitor. htop isn't even available by default, and users have to ask why it's not included. The preinstalled apps are mostly custom "core apps" like calculator, email, and file manager rather than proven system utilities that would help users understand what their OS is doing. Even shipping htop by default would show that devs understand what an OS actually needs.
But again, I see this over and over again in FOSS: people reinvent apps when such FOSS apps already exist, fork whole distros instead of making configuration sets/setup scripts, reinvent damn web browsers... And we all end up with thousands of half-baked apps, OSes, and projects.
Meanwhile, look at what Droidian and Mobian are doing: They use pure Debian packages, desktop Firefox with extensions, existing DEs (Phosh/Plasma Mobile), and focus their limited resources on making Linux work on mobile hardware. They don't waste time rewriting calculators.
And every time I try to draw people's attention to this pattern, everyone acts like it's nothing, like there is clearly no issue at all. But the user numbers tell a different story - Ubuntu Touch isn't growing, while projects that leverage existing FOSS infrastructure (like PostmarketOS with 700+ contributors) ARE growing.
I don't say this to attack - I say it because I genuinely wanted Ubuntu Touch to succeed, and it frustrates me to see talented volunteers burning time on problems that have already been solved by the broader FOSS community.
-
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
at the same time, the OS doesn't even ship a decent resource monitor. htop isn't even available by default, and users have to ask why it's not included.
You know, I've never ever even realised there wasn't one. This shows you that we are very different users. I'm a rather average user with a small dash of power user. You sound the other way around.
And clearly you seem to know a lot. It makes me wonder whether or not there really isn't a way you could help. You seem generally motivated to make things better, there is an energy present in your frustration and maybe that energy could find a constructive outlet.
I'm wondering about something else. Who is the 'we' in "We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely"? You're making it sound as if we should care deeply, when the reality is that people stop and start using mobile OSses all the time. Just this week I helped two users switch to UT and they both like it.
-
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
500+ device ports versus Ubuntu Touch's approximately 50
uh? I am currently evaluating my options on getting a so called 'smart' phone again without Google and of course Apple, and from what I see PostmarketOS has ONE (1) device that can (more or less) qualify as 'daily driver': the Pinephone. Not sure if it's even compatible with the carriers in MY country.
My understanding is that UT has about 10.
From this point of view, UT has more coverage but if you have lot of credible stories of people using Volla or Google or Fairphone or Samsung devices under PostmarketOS as their daily drivers, I am all ears.
By the way your expletives about the forum are making you seem like a troll. Sorry but that's very much what it looks. This forum is working really well and I'm favourably impressed by NodeBB. -
@grenudi
So you can post not being aggressive and cursing !
Continue like that and more people will talk with you.Especially since not everything you say is wrong.
Some people (even devs I guess) know that morph is kind of a problem for instance, some work is done to port firefox, and Librewolf (again, splitted forces), to Ubuntu Touch.
And yes some other apps may be replaced by more common FOSS apps.
But the way you say things, brutal and kind of insulting, is non productive.
Like you noticed, Dev team makes lot of usefull work, and Ubuntu Touch is a fully functional mobile OS since 2015, and thanks to UBports, it continues to be since 2017, and they had to deal with what canonical left them.
There is no other FOSS mobile system that provides such a service ! Maybe pureOS on Librem 5, I don't know, but what I know is it costs 900€ and is old hardware...
Anyway, let talk with respect to the dev team and community, please.
-
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
- Browser Development Challenge
Current situation:
Morph browser maintained by small team
Yes, Morph is indeed maintained by a small team, but the QtWebEngine it uses is maintained by a larger team upstream of it, and is basically an implementation of Chromium (which obviously has a gigantic team maintaining it).
No extension support (including ad blocking)
INCORRECT - ad blocking can be easily enabled via the uAdBlockNG app (available in the Open Store at https://open-store.io/app/uadblockng.liohmoeller ), and in the EFF's online test at https://coveryourtracks.eff.org provides "strong protection against web trackers and ads" once it is activated
Alternative approach:
Consider adopting Firefox Mobile or Chromium-based solution with privacy enhancements, allowing browser development resources to redirect toward core OS improvements.See above - Morph is using Chromium. AND Marius posted today on the UBports Telegram group a new test build using the Qt6 Webengine (which updates to a much more recent Chromium version) that should likely be integrated into a UT update by the end of this year.
There is also THREE additional projects led by UT community members developing alternative native browsers for UT:
uFirefox - a mobile optimized fork of Firefox that uses the current 143 verson - https://gitlab.com/debclick/uFirefox
uWolf - a mobile optimized version of Librewolf (which is a privacy/security hardened fork of Firefox) - https://open-store.io/app/uwolf.chromiumos-guy
Mimi - new browser in alpha state using Apple's WebKit webengine - https://open-store.io/app/mimibrowser.fredldotmeSO - browser development for UT is ongoing, and seeing some major improvements that will be available to all UT users soon.
Best regards,
Steve Berson - Browser Development Challenge
-
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
Comparison: PostmarketOS Approach
PostmarketOS demonstrates alternative strategy:500+ device ports versus Ubuntu Touch's approximately 50
While I appreciate the efforts by the PMOS devs, most of those 500 device ports you note from PMOS just boot the system, and then don't do anything most people need a phone to do. Where as on UT the ported devices are much more likely to actually be capable of working as daily drivers, with the majority of the supported devices having all expected functions working.
700+ contributors and growing
Active funding (NGI grants, reserves over 40k EUR)That's great, and I know that UBports would welcome additional developers and funding too. Be aware that UBports does have a good number of patrons though.
Reuses existing components (Alpine packages, established desktop environments)
Obviously UT reuses LOTS of existing components received from Ubuntu, and has collaborated with Debian & Manjaro teams as well. PLUS there have been exchanges with the Mobian, Droidian, Postmarket and Sailfish OS teams working on certain issues too.
Monthly development updates with community engagement
There are regular updates from the UBports dev team on their YouTube Q&A, along with constant posting on multiple dedicated Telegram and Matrix channels.
Best regards,
Steve Berson -
@grenudi said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
Resource Allocation Suggestion
Current distribution (estimated):This isn't even estimated, it's just a wild guess with zero data supporting the conclusions made in it.
-
NGL, @grenudi I am note sure where your determination of hammering down on UT is based of.
The way you set up this thread I can see its not so much aimed towards the developers of UT but rather the community behind them but what is the gain?
Are you trying to get resources diverted to another project or a merge?And to be totally honest, I bought an €700 phone (Volla Quintus) which is running UT and yes, atm I cannot use it as a daily...
I am very wary of how (hopefully not if) I am to make the switchover from my current Android phone. But in my eye and experience its just a matter of when this could be a base of a daily driver for me.But bully be me, I will not stop hoping, supporting or cheering for any project with the right intentions!
-
@gpatel-fr said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
My understanding is that UT has about 10.
Currently 26 on the list: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/
And 28 if you count the Oneplus 5 and 5t, which are contrary to what the list says well supported, and should appear back on it soon. -
I really don't mind a good discussion and arguments about what we do compared with other foss OS and even about the main two.
However please drop the swearing this is not the place for that. We want anyone who is interested to use and find the forum a frindlyand helpful place to go, regardless of age etc.
Some of your points are valid and we are more than aware of them and those bits I read through.
One point to remember is that UTs aim is to be the alternative, straight out of the box daily driver alternative to the main OS. So our aims might not align with what all Foss users would want.
We want people to be able to pick up a UT device and just use it as great phone. No complicated options or requirements, but something they can get their heads around and feel familiar with quickly while getting all the advantages of Foss.
Are we there yet, no. Are there things (some of which you mention)we need to improve on yes. Will we get there? Yes we will, I have no doubt on that.
If you want to be part of that you are welcome, if you want to change and alter UT on your own device feel free. You may discover something of use to UT in general. We however will not change the aims and purpose of UT as first set out when Marius started on this journey and I for one will change or apologize for that aim. -
@Moem said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
Currently 26 on the list: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/
yeah I know about this list, it's quite outdated it seems; for example the Fairphone 5 is listed with support for Focal only, I understand it works also with Noble, and I was trying a guess about the number of devices able to be a daily driver with Noble since Focal is - as the link you give aptly says - outdated itself.
-
@t12392n said in We Drop Ubuntu Touch Entirely:
atm I cannot use it as a daily...
hmm, is it about Volte or your bank don't like Waydroid ? if the latter, it's not quite entirely the OS fault's.
