Organize and stimulate promotion of UBports Ubuntu Touch
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Easy things first
Whoops, where did you find that link? It should point to https://ubports.com/page/foundation-statutes. I can fix that.
See screen shot from https://ubports.com/page/foundation-boardmembers (6. Boar Members on the Foundation page):
Ricardo [...] for example. Ewald [...]
Thanks for the insight. But you see this is what I meant. I think it is very hard to grasp how some people are involved. For you it seems easy as I think you are working on the code but for me as I am not contributing to the code (my bad
Java guy here) I did not know. Frankly I do understand also the point of being a silent participant and doing my kind of work
Sooo, hmm how to solve this? Maybe a bit more explanation on the Board page other thanDeputy Chairman of the Board
@ricmm
Next:
to avoid heavy tax surprises similar to The Krita Foundation. That's why your T-shirt topic seemed to go ignored.
An answer would have done the trick. Explaining the problem even with copy paste as "you" (not you in person) seem to have to explain this on multiple topics.
But I do not think that your explanation in this case is valid. Apt-Get Shirt does a donation from each sold T-Shirt. I think 5% of the price. So I do not know if this is valid as they have VLC, XFCE, diaspora and others (shop is down so this is from memory) which would put them in jeopardy (evil plan in progress ? :D) Maybe a missing piece of information on my side.Side note: nasty stuff with the Krita foundation. Yes surley, we do not want to go there!
We've had fairly regular updates on the foundation in the community updates. I
like I said missed this. Yeah well... blushNow enough of complains
Let's rather figure out how to circumvent this kind of problems.
Like I mentioned in some other topic, wouldn't it be good to have a story board where we as stakeholders can contribute in the sense of what we think we need or want. Then there should be "one person" / role who comes to a decision about which one of the stories will be tackled next (so basically a Product Owner role from Scrum) and presents it to us. Maybe with a feedback loop?
This is for features of UT but could also be applied to other tasks?The other task well...
I actually do not know right now how to e.g. incorporate @Profetik777's ideas or mine. I think there has to be a bit more open communication going on and making sure that everyone understands the arguments but not necessarily agrees. But open for all nevertheless. So that @Profetik777 cannot say I did this and this and it worked out like that without anyone being able to verify this to either concur or disagree. I am not saying that @Profetik777 lied or some such
(I hate writing and not being able to talk, this kind of affirmation would not be necessary otherwise. Therefore also my incapability to write this properly )Moreover I think the community updates are missing clear channels where to put the questions. Youtube? Telegram? The Forum? Wiki? Matrix? Are all taken into consideration, if not why? Or when then.
Maybe also a suggestion box in the forum. Where at least an answer is due after a certain period of time.
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One thing I can remember from the Ubuntu touch days was a feeling that their communication with users was very clouded, and appeared to lack a clear sense of direction for users to follow. Lots of technical terms banded about and future targets moving ever further back or so it seemed to me. Even when rumours of the plug been pulled grew denials poured out and then bang gone.
That's not how it might have been for those in the industry, but as an everyday user and supporter that's how I felt.
If that can be avoided by setting clear targets, goals etc that are easy to find and read by everybody who is even vaguely interested, then so much the better. A little more time invested now will be well spent in providing a clear future and hopefully a very successful one for Ubports and avoid feelings of disillusionment and a abandonment by users and supports.
There is a lesson to be learnt from Ubuntu touch and its not a good one from what I remember. -
A short note from my side, the more administration and structure we put on top of this, the less time will be available to actually work on things and get stuff done. We are all limited on time, if this would be my day job, I would love to give amplified attention to scrum processes, multi-layered decision makings and lengthy articles where we explain every step.
Heck, we are not that big. Here is a bunch of people (roughly 10 in the core team) trying to get this thing set up, and in the same time catch up with the bare minimum goals we set ourselves. We are up and running for 8 months now, give us a break and grow things naturally. During this time excuse the dust.
You are demanding pro management approach, where other communities took years and burnt a lot of money to get there. We are not Mozilla or smth like this. Our funds are ok at the moment, but I am fully against spending it on thinking on how the homepage looks like (and by the way we are also working on this) while we miss the deadline on important work like 16.04 transition that needs to be done.
This first year is cleanup and consolidation, and getting the shattered pieces together. Next year is careful development and getting the structure right. Then we will see. In contrast to other communities we did not grow that big, we just became it overnight.
BR
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@flohack your short note just makes my point even more. It really does show that you aren't really paying attention to exactly what I am saying, and probably assuming some marketing guy wants marketing to be the main thing over everything...that couldn't be further
From the truth...I think we all want the same thing more than you realize but hear me out.A short note from my side, the more administration and structure we put on top of this, the less time will be available to actually work on things and get stuff done.
Again, if you inherently assume that the same people developing are the same people "administering" anything I'm talking about [outbound marketing, dev and other forms of recruitment, increased funding]. That is not what we are describing here.
We are all limited on time, if this would be my day job, I would love to give amplified attention to scrum processes, multi-layered decision makings and lengthy articles where we explain every step.
Heck, we are not that big. Here is a bunch of people (roughly 10 in the core team) trying to get this thing set up, and in the same time catch up with the bare minimum goals we set ourselves.
Here is our main point of contention. In one hand you cite the reason for the current pacing of the project as "We are not that big" yet when a swell of folks are eager to assist with growing the capacity of the project, its met w resistance (see your earlier response to the original post that we wouldn't be ready) or excuse or worst...silence! Let me share an example:
Thats like using a new axe to chop a tree down. At first you see instant progress but after some time things slow down when the blade gets dull. But when someone is asking to sharpen the axe for you or give you a bigger ax and you say "hey, I cant be bothered right now with your ax, cant you see I'm trying to cut this tree down?"
Can you see how people would find that line of "we are just 10 people" would start getting old over time?. No one is forcing ubports to remain 10 strong only
We are up and running for 8 months now, give us a break and grow things naturally.
See previous point about streamlining advancement. Grow things naturally? This is not a hobby is it? Is this an organization forming into a foundation or a passion project? It sometimes feels like ubports wants all the benefits of becoming a legit organization with none of the responsibilities of organizational structure or accountibility that comes with it.
During this time excuse the dust.
We dont mind the dust. We want to help clean it up wherever possible.You are demanding pro management approach, where other communities took years and burnt a lot of money to get there. We are not Mozilla or smth like this.
1st. No one is demanding anything. I am speaking for myself and pointing out something that has potentially been a pattern and emphatically asking for some alternative perspectives be explored. Everyone is aware of the fact that this isn't a large operation. I'm not of the belief that it requires that environment for it to succeed. I personally think it's not crazy to believe there is middle ground between where things are now and canonical or mozilla, wouldn't you say? Or is it your engineering background has you thinking in only binary terms of 0, 1... "Organic growth" or super corporate Mozilla Money? My position lies somewhere in between. Perhaps closer to the organic scale than you would realize.
Our funds are ok at the moment, but I am fully against spending it on thinking on how the homepage looks like (and by the way we are also working on this) while we miss the deadline on important work like 16.04 transition that needs to be done.
I agree w you! But I have to ask Who is the We exactly ? You are giving the impression its the same individuals. Which would be a problem. A big one in fact. Are you touching the website? And who would petition spending money on a homepage?
The only thing that would be worth spending money on is anything that increases developer hours or greater capacity for patreon donations. Which would feed into greater potential for both. Which would then be used to mitigate said challenges. If done right [hence the importance of strategy and execution and caring enough about nuance and details] this has exponetial potential.
This first year is cleanup and consolidation, and getting the shattered pieces together. Next year is careful development and getting the structure right.
Then we will see.
That is a disappointing way to look at things. See what? People are putting hard earned money and you have had big donations In the past...I don't think We Will See is the type of stewardship model people are expecting from the project. You make it seem asking for some milestones is asking for sophisticated multi-year projections.
In contrast to other communities we did not grow that big, we just became it overnight.
**Agreed. And I empathize. I really do. And in a way its a good problem to have when folks are eager to pester you guys about growth and direction in a weird way. But I do feel there has to be some serious reflection on those who have the ultimate decision making power to consider the very real possibility that solutions to these concerns might be outside of your domain or strengths but not necessarily out of reach.
There is a reason why they call these things community. Because we need each other and play off one anothers skill sets. And Ubports are not the only organization to face these challenges. Others have. And have overcome them.** I hope UBports overcomes them soon enough.
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@lakota 100% agree.
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@twinkybot and @Profetik777,
Maybe also a suggestion box in the forum.
For the software? I'm going to say no to that one. Canonical hosted a dedicated website where users could suggest and upvote features several years ago. Where you think this would lead to consensus and good feelings, it actually led to "Ooooh, Canonical isn't listening to us, they haven't implemented (feature with more than 5 upvotes)". This was before any Unity drama, so you can't cite that as the reason.
If nothing else, people can add a "+1" reaction to a bug report or enhancement request on their given project, likely ubuntu-touch. That doesn't guarantee someone will have time to work on it.
Apt-Get Shirt does a donation from each sold T-Shirt. I think 5% of the price.
Since the foundation doesn't exist, we don't qualify for anyone donating to non-profits. Yet.
so basically a Product Owner role from Scrum
This assumes that we have a full-time hand available, they are experienced with Agile, and we have the volume of work that this would be required. Right now, that isn't the case.
This is a meritocracy. The people who do the most work get the most control over the project.
I personally feel that a 3-month, only lightly detailed roadmap sounds more doable than the airy "have a roadmap" that most people have said for the past months. I feel that we could have teams prepare quarterly goals. Even if the development team's map right now is just "make 16.04 happen".
But we have that. It's on GitHub. https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/milestones
These milestones show what we plan on fixing. They also show that the work that someone wants to do actually gets done. @nfsprodriver wanted an alpha slider for the background dim, so he made it happen.
Milestones get made by the people who will be doing the work to complete them. That's Marius and a handful of others. Would it be more "open" to some if the meetings to make them were broadcast to the world? Yes, but it would also mean that everyone watching would put in their opinion even though they won't be putting in any work to make the milestone better. People who can't fully appreciate or estimate the work can't reliably make a roadmap for the work, and we shouldn't expect them to. Plus, when we tell them "no, we can't make your feature", we get the same situation as above.
That doesn't mean that developers aren't listening, just that there's a certain amount of time that each of them has to dedicate to Ubuntu Touch so some priorities come up and some get dropped.
It also doesn't meant that people outside of the current team will never be able to join. Those that do the most work, and by that token will have the most impact on the project, get to make their own goals to drive the project.
Talking about the other, non-core development teams, though, having more roadmaps might make sense. I'm thinking the documentation team, marketing, design maybe. We'd track these in much the same way on GitHub. Let people know what we want to work on.
If you want to see how we track all this information, there are some process documents in Processes. Commenting directly on how we make these would be helpful so we can improve how we make them in the future.
I guess I don't see what is being called for that we don't already have. I don't disagree that the current processes need improvement. We're always thinking about that, and the processes are always improving. We're also constantly adding new ones, so please propose what you want us to do. However, I can't get behind the idea of bringing in every Agile and project management tactic straight from the book at this scale.
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@unisuperbox said in Organize and stimulate promotion of UBports Ubuntu Touch:
This is a meritocracy. The people who do the most work get the most control over the project.
@Profetik777 this is a very important sentence. Your actual contribution counts most, as we think. Everybody can talk about lots of theory, practical work effort that also is more than just cosmetic "formatting the colors" counts most for us, since it drives the project forward. How otherwise we can measure love and dedication for the project? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy
It might be a change that is not welcomed by everyone, but we are not producing "business plans" like Canonical did, give roadmap speeches "by the end of the year we will have achieved x" -> this is something you can expect from Apple or Google. And not even they are fulfilling all their goals. At least this is my understanding.
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Oh dear
Let's see where to start. First of all I want to make clear I agree that developers can and should do waht de like and decide what they can tackle. Hopefully influcend by us but still it is their free time, their hobby therefore their choosing.
As I do not have the zeal to program again after my 8-10 hours, I chose to donate money as I believe in UBports idea.
Maybe also a suggestion box in the forum.
For the software?
To be frank I did not really talk abouit which feature got implemented or about this decision process. I wanted UBports to get more attention and therefore more hands on coding.
That is why I wanted stickers, that's why I also pushed for Liberapay, that's why I came up with Apt-Get shirt ( I still think this idea is not dead). But, and this is my problem, although @Flohack said I should do as I see fit as we are a community (okay at least in regards of translations ), I do not know if I should proceed on my own or not. That's why I am seeking the discussion.
But I got ignored, the topic got no response etc., which made me wonder. Is the topic stupid, might very well be, or do the "relevant" people skip the forum altogether or do what they see fit. I do not know. (now more then before )
Although I am kind of a part of this community, I feel at a dead end and do not know how to act.Assuming I would have gotten more information in regards of the Apt-Get shirt topic on how to proceed with them and so on. Whom do I contact, who decides. Or do I simply carry on? I hope I could explain my dilemma.
As a summary I have issues providing ideas and seeing them discussed properly and getting implemented if they are good.
But we have that. It's on GitHub. https://github.com/ubports/ubuntu-touch/milestones
[...], there are some process documents in Processes.Didn't know and thanks for the links. Can we pin those links on the forum or make them more prominent?
This is a meritocracy. The people who do the most work get the most control over the project.
Does this only take now the coding into account? If not then I come back to my described problem
@nfsprodriver wanted an alpha slider for the background dim, so he made it happen.
Fair enough and good enough. I think upvoting a feature request is in my point of view good. I like freedom and I promote self-responsibility as much as I can. Therefore developers do as you see fit. Still it is a hobby.
I'm thinking the documentation team, marketing, design maybe. We'd track these in much the same way on GitHub. Let people know what we want to work on.
I like the approach. I thought this is already the case like the translation. I found this very easy to integrate and thanks to @Flohack who gave me the hints on how to act.
E.g. I would like to be able to fix the broken link I shared earlier in this thread. I know if we go down this road it might lead to the problems wikipedia had or has. But still...How otherwise we can measure love and dedication for the project?
Does it take coding only int account? If not then see above
Hard question but I believe this kind of discussion counts as dedication. The amount one donats counts as dedication, providing ideas in the forum or other channels is dedication. But from those mentioned something should be able to grow. Which I see now kind of blocked.but we are not producing "business plans" like Canonical did, give roadmap speeches "by the end of the year we will have achieved x"
I certainly hope not. But I think it is not what @Profetik777 meant. I believe he shares the same issue as I have. He wants to get the project going by doing something else then programming.
I did not read the theory behind Meritocracy but will do it soon. I think I can to some degree align with it. Nevertheless this would mean I take some actions into my hands maybe without having enough information and will act. Which might lead then to issues like Krita had.I do not wnat to polute this discussion now therefore my question will be put here for Apt-Get t-shirt:
https://forums.ubports.com/topic/803/promotion-idea/ -
@flohack I'm interested in whether or not you can answer, respond, speak to the specific points I've mentioned in the past few posts. It feels as though you are choosing not to get specific and conveniently keeping things high level...when you do that, I don't think anyone, including myself, would disagree...like the concept of meritocracy.
If not, that is fine. I'll let those in the community decide whether or not you are more interested in clinging on to your arguments as an attempt to make sure the status quo remains...as suppose to using this as an opportunity to revisit your position and maybe tweak how elements of the project are handled. And respond to posts....
Oh, that comment about practical work more than just cosmetic "formatting of colors"...lol that was cute. I think anyone who has followed this thread has realized by now I've been talking about deeply serious and significant aspects of marketing, scaling, and strategy. I'm pretty sure others will see your attempt to take attention away from the points I've made.
But on the point of Meritocracy, I was actually surprised that card wasn't used earlier. I think @twinkybot made a good point about how you measure dedication and contribution. Is it ONLY the programming/development that counts? Seriously, I think it would be great to get your answer at least that one @Flohack . Also, do the merits of ideas count? Can the best ideas win? Which will then impact what is actually done? Or is it more specifically, only doing things that @Flohack and those with "power" agree with? Nevermind if it is outside their domain of expertise. Lastly, on this point of merit, how can one demonstrate the merit of their contribution IF THEY DON'T GET ACCESS OR OPPORTUNITY TO CONTRIBUTE????? If someone wants to contribute in the domain that is NOT technical but gets denied, ignored, or ideas shot down, how can one develop a reputation that merits more influence and impact? Anyone reading this, let me know if i'm not explaining myself here correctly and take a stab. I hope I'm making sense.
See, if a different posture towards these ideas was taken, there would be more of an experimental spirit to testing these things.(and not dismissal like "font colors")...for good measure, someone on the marketing team would agree to "test" ideas on a very small scale and go from there...kinda like beta testing features....No one goes ALL IN on a beta, but they want to see proof of concept to see if it works first before shutting it down. Just as a marketing tip: Surveys are great "beta" test for ideas.... Have you guys ever done a survey asking the community what they think about things?
But, because @Flohack's lack of addressing my specific points, it makes me wonder......do you prefer conditions of - "we are just a small team"? Does this in some twisted way give you cover when people actually point out legitimate criticism? I have to ask because I would think by now some concessions would have been made to our points...but there is nothing....
@UniSuperBox - even back when I was on the team, you yourself were asking for even BASIC milestones/timelines...@Flohack , you noticed I didn't say sophisticated scrum strategies....basic elements....in fact, I think we were in the same telegram group with Marius when I would request alternatives with @UniSuperBox . So, this isn't a new thing people with "merit" and those who don't have merit have been asking for for some time. I think the community would understand that we aren't there yet with super advance projections...so I'm confused when folks make it seem we are asking for SixSigma operations llevel of milestone planning lol. But glad that progress has been made in this area and would agree milestones from other aspects [nontechnical] be given as well. Again something is better than nothing.
I'll leave things here since I don't think it is going anywhere...@Flohack - you can have the last word since you've been with the project and contributed more than most. I would also invite you to a video call to hash this out since this medium of communication isn't always best for breaking down these concepts.
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However, I can't get behind the idea of bringing in every Agile and project management tactic straight from the book at this scale.
@unisuperbox no one ever anything remotely close to that. But I see the fear. There is a middle ground.
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Ähm I do not want to quit this discussion but I am going tomorrow morning on a trip for a week. Thus I won't be able to respond.
In the end I just want to know how to get non-code related ideas going.
And I want to make Ubports great again (sorry couldn't skip this joke)I'll be back
Happy new year and a great party to you all.
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I think that first you have to make Ubuntu Touch accessible to newer smartphones!
I struggled to find a Nexus 5 at a reasonable price to see if this OS would suit me.
I was very lucky because the one I found broke down a few days before at the former owner (SIM problem) ... sold for spare parts at 30 € shipping included: I do not have the SIM problem.
I know friends who would be good at Ubuntu Touch, but the lack of compatible smartphones at reasonable prices is a drag ... often they have a smartphone in the cabinet, but unusable to test.
Side smartphone company, the switch may be more complex with some tools developed only on conventional OS.
It's now been 2 weeks that I am under Ubuntu Touch for the private, I am fully satisfied with this OS, while being aware that problems can occur after an update. -
@dda Read my response at the beginning of the thread (the one with the list of items): Yes we know it, its a weak point, but 16.04 update is much more important right now
BR
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@flohack : Sorry not to have read the whole topic, but my English is almost nil, so I have to work with Google translate.
Given the number and especially the size of some answers, I did not have the courage to pass all the answers to the translation.
Going to version 16.04 is certainly a good thing to get as close as possible to the LTS version of Ubuntu.
I seem to have read during my research for an alternative OS to GAFAM, that a collaboration with another project more hardware-oriented would be possible or in discussion ... this would allow you obviously more to focus on the OS. -
wow some of this thread got a bit OTT and on telegram (caught some of the other night). Hope my comment didn't upset anyone that was not my intention.
Suppose one of the best forms of promotion is the users themselves, so I'll continue to do that,nice new ubports wallpaper and all.
once again big thanks to all involved for their efforts so far and a Happy New Year one and all. -
Sorry if off-topic, but I found this CCC talk insightful regarding some of the topics discussed in this thread: https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9087-organisational_structures_for_sustainable_free_software_development
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@kalle-kruse Nice one actually not too much off topic
@UniSuperBox @Flohack did you watch this video? Maybe this person or the named network can help you (us) to do things right and tell us on how to porperly grow.
