@flohack - yeah I respectfully disagree but see where you are coming from. For the sake of the community, I think this is a great conversation to be had since it would be helpful for others to examine (or re-examine) their own unique circumstances and tolerance levels that impact commitments to projects.

As a general rule of thumb, progress > perfection....and 100% agree with you. Compromise will always be needed to move forward in projects like this. Of course, just like with anything, there are always exceptions. For me, when over a course of a period you ask for basic things (like embed codes / unique tracking links to measure our efforts for financial sustainability campaign that never happened) and they go ignored, it becomes pretty challenging to tell yourself "Well, it is a compromise, you can't have it all!". The trust and belief of those making decisions begins to diminish when thinking about compromise. After all, you could only get ignored on telegram for so long. And when you do get a word, it is completely out of left field and mishandled with no room for discussion.

On your point about not being happy with a lot of things....this may sound funny but, I would be happy to be unhappy if folks on the marketing team at the time knew our cases were heard, considered, and met halfway...and discussions were going on in a transparent manner...and not just with those who had more access to Marius than others...

So, to summarize, it is hard to ask and reach a compromise without conversations

And I think that is a healthy marker for deciding to step away from something, especially when you are doing it as a volunteer position.

@Flohack , your experience might be different given your position. I understand that in this early stage in the project, those touching core technical components probably have more "time at the table" to discuss things and have a healthier more robust back and forth...that was certainly not my experience (and also, based on the @twinkybot 's post, not his either).

So, for the community, it is important to:

1. Know what are your own personal "deal breakers" are. For me, it was long periods of little to no communication and mishandled communication (which, by the way, caused mishandlings of my own).

2. Voice all concerns appropriately, and know what personal timetables you have before moving on to another issue worth fighting for, or moving on altogether.

3. Seek to find ways to support in more ways that are not "fixed point" (projects that are time-bound)...but can happen whenever and however (promotion on social media for example). Or even financially....or encouraging others to donate (which I think could happen more often).

Lastly, I just have to add this in there, this is a point that really made me scratch my head...

"As soon if you feel personal frustration you are doing it wrong."

Again, just my opinion, but I personally feel this is the completely wrong way to look at it...this might be your case, for you...which I am happy for you about....but I can't imagine this being the case for everyone...esp. those who are passionate about projects that are so important, like this one.

On a more macro level, I've seen some of this from some segments of the gnu/linux community....on one hand, they cry about not having enough options for free or open options for linux on mobile, the outcry for privacy and having control of our devices, etc etc....yet, so lax on discovering ways to improve our methods or models for scaling and sustainability...like, why would you NOT rush to discover industry best practices and not seek the best help in implementing them in a healthy way to speed track advancement? I am sure I am not alone when I say we are tired of projects being too little too late, meanwhile, proprietary solutions make the next leapfrog (e.g. Samsung - DEX). Even if it isn't the exact solution, it keeps people from looking elsewhere.

I don't know about you @Flohack , but when Canonical announced they dropped convergence, UT, and convergence overall, it crushed me, but then FIRED ME UP to do something about it. So yeah, I'm going to be a little frustrated if I find that those who are in the best position to do the greatest good in this area are fumbling a bit in certain areas...e.g. using becoming a foundation as a reason/excuse for not engaging in year-round funding initiatives or hiring more full time or part time devs.

@flohack said in Organize and stimulate promotion of UBports Ubuntu Touch:

The question is, are we ready to serve?

Ready or not, it is already happening...the questions that are important to think about now is HOW do we plan on serving at a larger scale NOW, to be ready for later.

The age-old religious adage captures this idea:

"Noah didn't build the ark when it starting raining...."

You have to see, a too big demand for the project could turn into negative feelings, effectively having a negative impact on everything:

Not enough devices are enabled, especially you cannot buy new hardware ATM
Our release cycles are lagging and we need more hands as developers
Our server capacities might get overrun
16.04 is a must to offer it to a wider audience

I would agree with this sentiment if this theoretically happened in a vacuum and the issues you brought up were the only variables we were accounting the for...in fact, things change when we zoom out. We find that marketing and communications plays a role in this framing/messaging for the project.

I am afraid of a day when I wake up and suddenly we got 10k more users - We don't want to disappoint them. So, organic growth is important, it's slow and unpredictable, but once we reach a certain stage we will also ramp up marketing.

Marketing is the 1st mover effect of growth and scale. No marketing, no one knows you exist, and if no one knows you exist, how do they sign up for patreon (oops, librepay).

Essentially, marketing and communications SETS THE TABLE for expectations for those who come to know our project and decide to learn more. This already is done pretty well with the devices supported section. You know which devices you will have better luck with.

I think if you give people the chance to surprise you on what they are willing to support (even if it isn't ready for prime-time use), they will. It is the reason why the project has gone this far.

I respectfully would submit to anyone who feels remotely like this to consider rethinking this foundational aspect of organizational development and scaling for projects:

Your view about scaling is just one view, amongst many, and a view colored by your expertise. I think @Flohack is right in literally fearing the day when they have 10k more users...he helps with infrastructure, and that is supposed to be the way he should feel! We are lucky to have someone who is affected by this potential scenario. That is his domain!

Here is the catch: growing an organization in a HEALTHY way is not and should not be stifled or at the mercy of server load, or the number of developers on hand. Just like marketing strategy should not be at the mercy of what bugs are being reported; If that is the lens we used and the only thing focused on, then, of course, I would be fearful too; the fear of a project becoming so big it becomes unmanageable and we are crushed under the weight of its own success is very real....unless we grow with scale in mind.

Thankfully, we don't HAVE to think that way.

When looking at the big picture, it is important to take into account other "arms" of the project that are designed to address these matters...yes, like Marketing and Communications. Not saying it happens here, but there is a level of disrespect for Marketing and Communication in many FOSS projects, and we are paying the price for it.

Marketing and Communications would be the ones listening to developers and blasting out info to people to help shape how they SHOULD be thinking about the project (e.g. Like mentioning all the important bullet points shared by @Flohack) on the website, mailing lists, telegram/irc, ubuntu users, etc.) so we proactively scale, but in a way that is throttled for sustainability.

I think we are at a special time in history right now where non-techy people are becoming more and more concious of the issues they face for mobile OS choices...

For example, I don't own a UBport supported device.

I NEVER flashed my phone to run an alternative OS like lineage etc.

I support UBports for its potential and excited about the progress...as well as others.

For this reason, I think that MORE people are out there like me, and more ideas to penetrate that demographic should be shared and backed concrete support....it should be considered more seriously and carefully; and even pitched to experts in this domain. I rather @Flohack focus on server bandwidth and developer management, as suppose to marketing pitches. I believe scaling up is not a matter of if but when...and we need those systems to be ready for it.

-Profetik777

Great idea.

Another angle similar to that is getting local colleges/universities aware through their Computer Science Clubs (some actually have FOSS/linux clubs too). Having them cover it, and in turn the university papers, could not just bring in new people, but new volunteers to the project.

Anyway, whether it is a school paper, or local/national, press release templates are a good way to jump start that so folks don't have to "create from scratch" every single time. I wonder building something like this would be helpful in getting folks the confidence to share...essentially, a press page is a bunch of templates that makes it easier for reporters to cover it.

The press page contains a "press kit"...sometimes in the page, and in zip folders (with logos, headshots of core devs, origin story summarized, etc.)

https://zapier.com/blog/best-press-kit/

I hope so. After using dex for some time, it reinforces the idea that the concept must be built with convergence in mind from the core, from the desktop UX to the apps. Otherwise it feels awkward at best, fragmented at worse. While I enjoy Dex, it is just a stop-gap for me until the REAL convergence comes along.

I hope so. After using dex for some time, it reinforces the idea that the concept must be built with convergence in mind from the core, from the desktop UX to the apps. Otherwise it feels awkward at best, fragmented at worse. While I enjoy Dex, it is just a stop-gap for me until the REAL convergence comes along.

@dobey thanks for sharing. Not sure where I or anyone made the point you are attempting to counter with but good reminders overall and in general.

@3arn0wl all about the software? Its Both thats all I was saying. You need both. Its up to the user to decide how they will want to use it. Some will be fans for different aspects. After all there are those who buy S9 without dex or using it like a convergent device. Others buy it w dex. Hence qualifying it for him. For him its all about software.

@dobey said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

This is my problem with the whole focus on "convergence" as "plug your device into an external screen." That is not what convergence is about, but it's what so many seem to try and focus on.

I see what you mean. But I think for you that isn't what its all about. For many it is. Canonical did showcase this aspect as a major feature and there is a company who is literally shipping a product that people are buying for this very purpose. But we can agree to disagree.

Steve Jobs refused to release a bigger iPhone. He claimed it would cannibalize iPad sales. But now looking back we see bigger iphones and bigger iPad's. Both are selling. Nothing was replaced and I don't think anyone claimed converged devices would literally replace all our devices.

I agree with your point though about keylogging on public docks. That would be a threat to seriously consider.

@3arn0wl said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

I suggested snaps because we'll need desktop apps, and snaps are an easy way to load them. As much as I'd like to see it, I can't imagine we'll get app builders writing apps for everything we need... Maybe some apps will just be for desktop mode.

Agreed. Some snaps would not be built with convergence in mind...but some will. This is the hardest part - to get developers to think convergent. I think we will get there. IBM is still pushing out marketing about the benefits of "coding once, run everywhere".

https://twitter.com/IBM/status/1101629012407922693

This framework will greatly expedite convergent development because programmers are "lazy" and there is a cost benefit from doing so (more reach, more eyeballs, more eyeballs means more attention and potential for ad revenue). https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2018/01/08/developers-are-lazy-and-thats-usually-a-good-thing/#5ddc228a1391

But I think Canonical had a good idea when they had the standard window size of their "staging" window when using split screen. It wasn't free form. Here is demo of what they came up with before they dropped it.

https://youtu.be/fiEkCaA_P7c?t=155

Lo and behold, those dimensions are oddly close to mobile phone dimensions. Was this on accident. No. You can create an app view as well as a multi-task pane for tablet use - perhaps without changing much code.

P.s. Apple also has this framework for managing an "app" view while in multi-tasking/split window mode and standardizes that as well...this makes it easier for devs to come along and code for that standard. Here is a link to that. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/ios/visual-design/adaptivity-and-layout/

PurismOS goes into this and does a nice job at explaining that this can, and technically has, already been pulled off.
They describe it on the second half of the article.

https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-convergent-welcome-to-the-future/

Being linux users in general, our crowd has been the one that championed innovation and forward thinking...after all, even people doubted GUI interfaces wholesale at one point believe it or not. Let's not get too close to that kind of thinking.

@doniks said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

One thing that I find a bit surprising is that "convergence conversations" are usually of a either/or mindset. I want convergence, but I do not necessarily want it instead of another device/setup that I have now, I want it in addition.

This!

People thought a slab of glass would replace laptops. We still have laptops and we have a ton of tablets. People thought laptops would replace desktops. We have both. Folks thought cars would replace trucks. We have trucks. We have cars still. Both co-exist.

I think it is important to observe history when it comes to how mainstream society adopts and adapts to technology and how we interface it...and get our design/product insights from that (not saying let it drive the entire ship, that would be silly) but at least let those things inform our opinions rather than hyper-personalizing how we use devices and trying to infuse that with an entire demographic of users who are not like us.

When this happens, I think we have a better shot at moving the conversation forward.Thanks @wayneoutthere for posting the article. This is a great discussion.

1. What is the biggest misunderstanding that folks have about the project and what should be the communities response when they encounter it from others?

2. What are one or two challenges (technical or otherwise) that if solved would be a huge game changer to help the project by leaps and bounds?

Great idea.

Another angle similar to that is getting local colleges/universities aware through their Computer Science Clubs (some actually have FOSS/linux clubs too). Having them cover it, and in turn the university papers, could not just bring in new people, but new volunteers to the project.

Anyway, whether it is a school paper, or local/national, press release templates are a good way to jump start that so folks don't have to "create from scratch" every single time. I wonder building something like this would be helpful in getting folks the confidence to share...essentially, a press page is a bunch of templates that makes it easier for reporters to cover it.

The press page contains a "press kit"...sometimes in the page, and in zip folders (with logos, headshots of core devs, origin story summarized, etc.)

https://zapier.com/blog/best-press-kit/

Hello,

I know being mindful of security/privacy is a factor for many FOSS projects...found this and thought this might be good for anyone who wants to do email marketing in a way that is cost-effective and respectful of user data...

Odoo is a great platform, but you have options if you don't want to keep email contacts on someone else's server. Not saying this is a good fit for UBports right now (or ever), but cool to keep on the radar. It is GPLv2.

https://dadamailproject.com/

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However, I can't get behind the idea of bringing in every Agile and project management tactic straight from the book at this scale.

@unisuperbox no one ever anything remotely close to that. But I see the fear. There is a middle ground.