I hope so. After using dex for some time, it reinforces the idea that the concept must be built with convergence in mind from the core, from the desktop UX to the apps. Otherwise it feels awkward at best, fragmented at worse. While I enjoy Dex, it is just a stop-gap for me until the REAL convergence comes along.

@dobey thanks for sharing. Not sure where I or anyone made the point you are attempting to counter with but good reminders overall and in general.

@3arn0wl all about the software? Its Both thats all I was saying. You need both. Its up to the user to decide how they will want to use it. Some will be fans for different aspects. After all there are those who buy S9 without dex or using it like a convergent device. Others buy it w dex. Hence qualifying it for him. For him its all about software.

@dobey said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

This is my problem with the whole focus on "convergence" as "plug your device into an external screen." That is not what convergence is about, but it's what so many seem to try and focus on.

I see what you mean. But I think for you that isn't what its all about. For many it is. Canonical did showcase this aspect as a major feature and there is a company who is literally shipping a product that people are buying for this very purpose. But we can agree to disagree.

Steve Jobs refused to release a bigger iPhone. He claimed it would cannibalize iPad sales. But now looking back we see bigger iphones and bigger iPad's. Both are selling. Nothing was replaced and I don't think anyone claimed converged devices would literally replace all our devices.

I agree with your point though about keylogging on public docks. That would be a threat to seriously consider.

@3arn0wl said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

I suggested snaps because we'll need desktop apps, and snaps are an easy way to load them. As much as I'd like to see it, I can't imagine we'll get app builders writing apps for everything we need... Maybe some apps will just be for desktop mode.

Agreed. Some snaps would not be built with convergence in mind...but some will. This is the hardest part - to get developers to think convergent. I think we will get there. IBM is still pushing out marketing about the benefits of "coding once, run everywhere".

https://twitter.com/IBM/status/1101629012407922693

This framework will greatly expedite convergent development because programmers are "lazy" and there is a cost benefit from doing so (more reach, more eyeballs, more eyeballs means more attention and potential for ad revenue). https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2018/01/08/developers-are-lazy-and-thats-usually-a-good-thing/#5ddc228a1391

But I think Canonical had a good idea when they had the standard window size of their "staging" window when using split screen. It wasn't free form. Here is demo of what they came up with before they dropped it.

https://youtu.be/fiEkCaA_P7c?t=155

Lo and behold, those dimensions are oddly close to mobile phone dimensions. Was this on accident. No. You can create an app view as well as a multi-task pane for tablet use - perhaps without changing much code.

P.s. Apple also has this framework for managing an "app" view while in multi-tasking/split window mode and standardizes that as well...this makes it easier for devs to come along and code for that standard. Here is a link to that. https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/ios/visual-design/adaptivity-and-layout/

PurismOS goes into this and does a nice job at explaining that this can, and technically has, already been pulled off.
They describe it on the second half of the article.

https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-convergent-welcome-to-the-future/

Being linux users in general, our crowd has been the one that championed innovation and forward thinking...after all, even people doubted GUI interfaces wholesale at one point believe it or not. Let's not get too close to that kind of thinking.

@doniks said in Convergence: The Hardware-Focused Discussion Thread:

One thing that I find a bit surprising is that "convergence conversations" are usually of a either/or mindset. I want convergence, but I do not necessarily want it instead of another device/setup that I have now, I want it in addition.

This!

People thought a slab of glass would replace laptops. We still have laptops and we have a ton of tablets. People thought laptops would replace desktops. We have both. Folks thought cars would replace trucks. We have trucks. We have cars still. Both co-exist.

I think it is important to observe history when it comes to how mainstream society adopts and adapts to technology and how we interface it...and get our design/product insights from that (not saying let it drive the entire ship, that would be silly) but at least let those things inform our opinions rather than hyper-personalizing how we use devices and trying to infuse that with an entire demographic of users who are not like us.

When this happens, I think we have a better shot at moving the conversation forward.Thanks @wayneoutthere for posting the article. This is a great discussion.

1. What is the biggest misunderstanding that folks have about the project and what should be the communities response when they encounter it from others?

2. What are one or two challenges (technical or otherwise) that if solved would be a huge game changer to help the project by leaps and bounds?

Great idea.

Another angle similar to that is getting local colleges/universities aware through their Computer Science Clubs (some actually have FOSS/linux clubs too). Having them cover it, and in turn the university papers, could not just bring in new people, but new volunteers to the project.

Anyway, whether it is a school paper, or local/national, press release templates are a good way to jump start that so folks don't have to "create from scratch" every single time. I wonder building something like this would be helpful in getting folks the confidence to share...essentially, a press page is a bunch of templates that makes it easier for reporters to cover it.

The press page contains a "press kit"...sometimes in the page, and in zip folders (with logos, headshots of core devs, origin story summarized, etc.)

https://zapier.com/blog/best-press-kit/

Hello,

I know being mindful of security/privacy is a factor for many FOSS projects...found this and thought this might be good for anyone who wants to do email marketing in a way that is cost-effective and respectful of user data...

Odoo is a great platform, but you have options if you don't want to keep email contacts on someone else's server. Not saying this is a good fit for UBports right now (or ever), but cool to keep on the radar. It is GPLv2.

https://dadamailproject.com/

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However, I can't get behind the idea of bringing in every Agile and project management tactic straight from the book at this scale.

@unisuperbox no one ever anything remotely close to that. But I see the fear. There is a middle ground.

@flohack I'm interested in whether or not you can answer, respond, speak to the specific points I've mentioned in the past few posts. It feels as though you are choosing not to get specific and conveniently keeping things high level...when you do that, I don't think anyone, including myself, would disagree...like the concept of meritocracy.

If not, that is fine. I'll let those in the community decide whether or not you are more interested in clinging on to your arguments as an attempt to make sure the status quo remains...as suppose to using this as an opportunity to revisit your position and maybe tweak how elements of the project are handled. And respond to posts....

Oh, that comment about practical work more than just cosmetic "formatting of colors"...lol that was cute. I think anyone who has followed this thread has realized by now I've been talking about deeply serious and significant aspects of marketing, scaling, and strategy. I'm pretty sure others will see your attempt to take attention away from the points I've made.

But on the point of Meritocracy, I was actually surprised that card wasn't used earlier. I think @twinkybot made a good point about how you measure dedication and contribution. Is it ONLY the programming/development that counts? Seriously, I think it would be great to get your answer at least that one @Flohack . Also, do the merits of ideas count? Can the best ideas win? Which will then impact what is actually done? Or is it more specifically, only doing things that @Flohack and those with "power" agree with? Nevermind if it is outside their domain of expertise. Lastly, on this point of merit, how can one demonstrate the merit of their contribution IF THEY DON'T GET ACCESS OR OPPORTUNITY TO CONTRIBUTE????? If someone wants to contribute in the domain that is NOT technical but gets denied, ignored, or ideas shot down, how can one develop a reputation that merits more influence and impact? Anyone reading this, let me know if i'm not explaining myself here correctly and take a stab. I hope I'm making sense.

See, if a different posture towards these ideas was taken, there would be more of an experimental spirit to testing these things.(and not dismissal like "font colors")...for good measure, someone on the marketing team would agree to "test" ideas on a very small scale and go from there...kinda like beta testing features....No one goes ALL IN on a beta, but they want to see proof of concept to see if it works first before shutting it down. Just as a marketing tip: Surveys are great "beta" test for ideas.... Have you guys ever done a survey asking the community what they think about things?

But, because @Flohack's lack of addressing my specific points, it makes me wonder......do you prefer conditions of - "we are just a small team"? Does this in some twisted way give you cover when people actually point out legitimate criticism? I have to ask because I would think by now some concessions would have been made to our points...but there is nothing....

@UniSuperBox - even back when I was on the team, you yourself were asking for even BASIC milestones/timelines...@Flohack , you noticed I didn't say sophisticated scrum strategies....basic elements....in fact, I think we were in the same telegram group with Marius when I would request alternatives with @UniSuperBox . So, this isn't a new thing people with "merit" and those who don't have merit have been asking for for some time. I think the community would understand that we aren't there yet with super advance projections...so I'm confused when folks make it seem we are asking for SixSigma operations llevel of milestone planning lol. But glad that progress has been made in this area and would agree milestones from other aspects [nontechnical] be given as well. Again something is better than nothing.

I'll leave things here since I don't think it is going anywhere...@Flohack - you can have the last word since you've been with the project and contributed more than most. I would also invite you to a video call to hash this out since this medium of communication isn't always best for breaking down these concepts.

@lakota 100% agree.

@flohack your short note just makes my point even more. It really does show that you aren't really paying attention to exactly what I am saying, and probably assuming some marketing guy wants marketing to be the main thing over everything...that couldn't be further
From the truth...I think we all want the same thing more than you realize but hear me out.

A short note from my side, the more administration and structure we put on top of this, the less time will be available to actually work on things and get stuff done.

Again, if you inherently assume that the same people developing are the same people "administering" anything I'm talking about [outbound marketing, dev and other forms of recruitment, increased funding]. That is not what we are describing here.

We are all limited on time, if this would be my day job, I would love to give amplified attention to scrum processes, multi-layered decision makings and lengthy articles where we explain every step.

Heck, we are not that big. Here is a bunch of people (roughly 10 in the core team) trying to get this thing set up, and in the same time catch up with the bare minimum goals we set ourselves.

Here is our main point of contention. In one hand you cite the reason for the current pacing of the project as "We are not that big" yet when a swell of folks are eager to assist with growing the capacity of the project, its met w resistance (see your earlier response to the original post that we wouldn't be ready) or excuse or worst...silence! Let me share an example:

Thats like using a new axe to chop a tree down. At first you see instant progress but after some time things slow down when the blade gets dull. But when someone is asking to sharpen the axe for you or give you a bigger ax and you say "hey, I cant be bothered right now with your ax, cant you see I'm trying to cut this tree down?"

Can you see how people would find that line of "we are just 10 people" would start getting old over time?. No one is forcing ubports to remain 10 strong only

We are up and running for 8 months now, give us a break and grow things naturally.

See previous point about streamlining advancement. Grow things naturally? This is not a hobby is it? Is this an organization forming into a foundation or a passion project? It sometimes feels like ubports wants all the benefits of becoming a legit organization with none of the responsibilities of organizational structure or accountibility that comes with it.

During this time excuse the dust.
We dont mind the dust. We want to help clean it up wherever possible.

You are demanding pro management approach, where other communities took years and burnt a lot of money to get there. We are not Mozilla or smth like this.

1st. No one is demanding anything. I am speaking for myself and pointing out something that has potentially been a pattern and emphatically asking for some alternative perspectives be explored. Everyone is aware of the fact that this isn't a large operation. I'm not of the belief that it requires that environment for it to succeed. I personally think it's not crazy to believe there is middle ground between where things are now and canonical or mozilla, wouldn't you say? Or is it your engineering background has you thinking in only binary terms of 0, 1... "Organic growth" or super corporate Mozilla Money? My position lies somewhere in between. Perhaps closer to the organic scale than you would realize.

Our funds are ok at the moment, but I am fully against spending it on thinking on how the homepage looks like (and by the way we are also working on this) while we miss the deadline on important work like 16.04 transition that needs to be done.

I agree w you! But I have to ask Who is the We exactly ? You are giving the impression its the same individuals. Which would be a problem. A big one in fact. Are you touching the website? And who would petition spending money on a homepage?

The only thing that would be worth spending money on is anything that increases developer hours or greater capacity for patreon donations. Which would feed into greater potential for both. Which would then be used to mitigate said challenges. If done right [hence the importance of strategy and execution and caring enough about nuance and details] this has exponetial potential.

This first year is cleanup and consolidation, and getting the shattered pieces together. Next year is careful development and getting the structure right.

Then we will see.

That is a disappointing way to look at things. See what? People are putting hard earned money and you have had big donations In the past...I don't think We Will See is the type of stewardship model people are expecting from the project. You make it seem asking for some milestones is asking for sophisticated multi-year projections.

In contrast to other communities we did not grow that big, we just became it overnight.

**Agreed. And I empathize. I really do. And in a way its a good problem to have when folks are eager to pester you guys about growth and direction in a weird way. But I do feel there has to be some serious reflection on those who have the ultimate decision making power to consider the very real possibility that solutions to these concerns might be outside of your domain or strengths but not necessarily out of reach.

There is a reason why they call these things community. Because we need each other and play off one anothers skill sets. And Ubports are not the only organization to face these challenges. Others have. And have overcome them.** I hope UBports overcomes them soon enough.

@twinkybot said in Organize and stimulate promotion of UBports Ubuntu Touch:

Reading this and throwing in my experience with dis-located teams.
I strongly urge for regular meetings. I mean live meetings. Where the community comes together and talks face-to-face about topics.

Agreed, although very difficult to do given the global community...I think regular team meetings that have structure, agenda, minutes, and open to listen in on like Firefox can go a long way until more LoCo events can pop up.

Additionally I'd say a roadmap is due or a process on getting the todos for the next step.

I agree, even if it is just for 3 month stretches. I think everyone knows you can never hit goals 100%, bc it would then mean you are shooting to low and its too easy...it should stretch the team but still be attainable...and those roadmaps should be per team (e.g. Dev has one, Marketing has 1 etc.).

I also felt now and then ignored or misunderstood or irrelevant. Still do as I am if at all percieved only as consumer.

I feel the same way sometimes, thankfully, we have platforms like this in place that hopefully, could make some traction and positive influence.

But for example having the workshop at locations (see another topic) will help. Especially when really active community members join
I do understand that most active people do this in their spare time therefore the perception of what is important differs quite a bit.

Agreed. That is why continuous discussion and negotiation of priorities are a MUST HAVE so all those involved can get on the same page.

I do believe that the step to create a foundation will help and is a good one. But it needs a more transparancy as what is going to happen and when

Agreed. Thanks for chiming in. I would like to know what exactly is it about a foundation that prevents UBports for wanting to seek MORE funding in the meantime?

@flohack - yeah I respectfully disagree but see where you are coming from. For the sake of the community, I think this is a great conversation to be had since it would be helpful for others to examine (or re-examine) their own unique circumstances and tolerance levels that impact commitments to projects.

As a general rule of thumb, progress > perfection....and 100% agree with you. Compromise will always be needed to move forward in projects like this. Of course, just like with anything, there are always exceptions. For me, when over a course of a period you ask for basic things (like embed codes / unique tracking links to measure our efforts for financial sustainability campaign that never happened) and they go ignored, it becomes pretty challenging to tell yourself "Well, it is a compromise, you can't have it all!". The trust and belief of those making decisions begins to diminish when thinking about compromise. After all, you could only get ignored on telegram for so long. And when you do get a word, it is completely out of left field and mishandled with no room for discussion.

On your point about not being happy with a lot of things....this may sound funny but, I would be happy to be unhappy if folks on the marketing team at the time knew our cases were heard, considered, and met halfway...and discussions were going on in a transparent manner...and not just with those who had more access to Marius than others...

So, to summarize, it is hard to ask and reach a compromise without conversations

And I think that is a healthy marker for deciding to step away from something, especially when you are doing it as a volunteer position.

@Flohack , your experience might be different given your position. I understand that in this early stage in the project, those touching core technical components probably have more "time at the table" to discuss things and have a healthier more robust back and forth...that was certainly not my experience (and also, based on the @twinkybot 's post, not his either).

So, for the community, it is important to:

1. Know what are your own personal "deal breakers" are. For me, it was long periods of little to no communication and mishandled communication (which, by the way, caused mishandlings of my own).

2. Voice all concerns appropriately, and know what personal timetables you have before moving on to another issue worth fighting for, or moving on altogether.

3. Seek to find ways to support in more ways that are not "fixed point" (projects that are time-bound)...but can happen whenever and however (promotion on social media for example). Or even financially....or encouraging others to donate (which I think could happen more often).

Lastly, I just have to add this in there, this is a point that really made me scratch my head...

"As soon if you feel personal frustration you are doing it wrong."

Again, just my opinion, but I personally feel this is the completely wrong way to look at it...this might be your case, for you...which I am happy for you about....but I can't imagine this being the case for everyone...esp. those who are passionate about projects that are so important, like this one.

On a more macro level, I've seen some of this from some segments of the gnu/linux community....on one hand, they cry about not having enough options for free or open options for linux on mobile, the outcry for privacy and having control of our devices, etc etc....yet, so lax on discovering ways to improve our methods or models for scaling and sustainability...like, why would you NOT rush to discover industry best practices and not seek the best help in implementing them in a healthy way to speed track advancement? I am sure I am not alone when I say we are tired of projects being too little too late, meanwhile, proprietary solutions make the next leapfrog (e.g. Samsung - DEX). Even if it isn't the exact solution, it keeps people from looking elsewhere.

I don't know about you @Flohack , but when Canonical announced they dropped convergence, UT, and convergence overall, it crushed me, but then FIRED ME UP to do something about it. So yeah, I'm going to be a little frustrated if I find that those who are in the best position to do the greatest good in this area are fumbling a bit in certain areas...e.g. using becoming a foundation as a reason/excuse for not engaging in year-round funding initiatives or hiring more full time or part time devs.

Has an email blast been sent out for a call to devs? I understand that UBports should have an email list of individuals who have indicated upon signing up that they are developers....perhaps a good starting point for targeted recruiting for an awesome app like this.

Hey @Flohack , it is understandable that you don't recall, but I was on the original marketing team for UBports...remember the time it took to get email opt-in page on the home page? I had to push for that, along with others. Once there was a shift in who decided the creative direction of marketing I had to step down...I didn't really agree with the way it was handled (a little shady to be honest, not enough open or consistent communication at the time in my opinion), let alone how that information was delivered to me, so it became obvious it wasn't a good fit to continue, hence me stepping down.

While I am happy to support where I can, I think providing my two cents here and there is the only thing I can do for now...and bring them to the open before the community, so if it is something marketing wants to pick up on, great...if not, no biggie. Thanks for the suggestion!

@flohack said in Organize and stimulate promotion of UBports Ubuntu Touch:

The question is, are we ready to serve?

Ready or not, it is already happening...the questions that are important to think about now is HOW do we plan on serving at a larger scale NOW, to be ready for later.

The age-old religious adage captures this idea:

"Noah didn't build the ark when it starting raining...."

You have to see, a too big demand for the project could turn into negative feelings, effectively having a negative impact on everything:

Not enough devices are enabled, especially you cannot buy new hardware ATM
Our release cycles are lagging and we need more hands as developers
Our server capacities might get overrun
16.04 is a must to offer it to a wider audience

I would agree with this sentiment if this theoretically happened in a vacuum and the issues you brought up were the only variables we were accounting the for...in fact, things change when we zoom out. We find that marketing and communications plays a role in this framing/messaging for the project.

I am afraid of a day when I wake up and suddenly we got 10k more users - We don't want to disappoint them. So, organic growth is important, it's slow and unpredictable, but once we reach a certain stage we will also ramp up marketing.

Marketing is the 1st mover effect of growth and scale. No marketing, no one knows you exist, and if no one knows you exist, how do they sign up for patreon (oops, librepay).

Essentially, marketing and communications SETS THE TABLE for expectations for those who come to know our project and decide to learn more. This already is done pretty well with the devices supported section. You know which devices you will have better luck with.

I think if you give people the chance to surprise you on what they are willing to support (even if it isn't ready for prime-time use), they will. It is the reason why the project has gone this far.

I respectfully would submit to anyone who feels remotely like this to consider rethinking this foundational aspect of organizational development and scaling for projects:

Your view about scaling is just one view, amongst many, and a view colored by your expertise. I think @Flohack is right in literally fearing the day when they have 10k more users...he helps with infrastructure, and that is supposed to be the way he should feel! We are lucky to have someone who is affected by this potential scenario. That is his domain!

Here is the catch: growing an organization in a HEALTHY way is not and should not be stifled or at the mercy of server load, or the number of developers on hand. Just like marketing strategy should not be at the mercy of what bugs are being reported; If that is the lens we used and the only thing focused on, then, of course, I would be fearful too; the fear of a project becoming so big it becomes unmanageable and we are crushed under the weight of its own success is very real....unless we grow with scale in mind.

Thankfully, we don't HAVE to think that way.

When looking at the big picture, it is important to take into account other "arms" of the project that are designed to address these matters...yes, like Marketing and Communications. Not saying it happens here, but there is a level of disrespect for Marketing and Communication in many FOSS projects, and we are paying the price for it.

Marketing and Communications would be the ones listening to developers and blasting out info to people to help shape how they SHOULD be thinking about the project (e.g. Like mentioning all the important bullet points shared by @Flohack) on the website, mailing lists, telegram/irc, ubuntu users, etc.) so we proactively scale, but in a way that is throttled for sustainability.

I think we are at a special time in history right now where non-techy people are becoming more and more concious of the issues they face for mobile OS choices...

For example, I don't own a UBport supported device.

I NEVER flashed my phone to run an alternative OS like lineage etc.

I support UBports for its potential and excited about the progress...as well as others.

For this reason, I think that MORE people are out there like me, and more ideas to penetrate that demographic should be shared and backed concrete support....it should be considered more seriously and carefully; and even pitched to experts in this domain. I rather @Flohack focus on server bandwidth and developer management, as suppose to marketing pitches. I believe scaling up is not a matter of if but when...and we need those systems to be ready for it.

-Profetik777