PinePhone
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Answering the question regarding pace of PinePhone BH sales. There are two ways to look at it - a positive way and a less positive way.
The BH edition took a little more time to sell than I initially thought, but hey, it did get sold out, right? So I think this is really good news, and encouraging for the next phase. The more so if you guys manage to have the
attachable keyboard ready by then. I'm sure it's going to be a huge inticement!Fact is, I had the PinePhone product page opened up in a tab of my phone's browser for a few days, when I finally decided to take the plunge it was too late
(I wouldn't have hesitated if the keyboard had been available as well!)What has me most concerned is not the hardware, but the software. As far as I understand it, UT is the FOSS OS the most ready, and already in use (it's been my daily driver for the past 3-4 months). But it's riddled with annoyances and missing important stuff that means one must really, really be dedicated to use it. Not unlike the state of desktop Linux 12 years ago. I fear it may deter a lot of potential buyers once the final PinePhone is released.
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A positive way to look at it is that people (potential end-users) understood that at this point in time the phone is meant for technically capable enthusiasts, who can contribute to the development and testing processes.
All things considered, I think it's good sign that you've sold as many "“BraveHeart” edition phones as you have. Congratulations!
A less positive view to take is that people say that they want a Linux phone, but in reality are not quite able to let go of their Android for iOS phones.
Although it's a good sign that you've sold as many as many "BraveHeart” edition phones as you have, I think that you'd be wise to hedge your bets by offering a way to dual boot between a pure Linux OS and Android from internal storage.
In my case, as I mentioned before, I'd be more likely to buy a Pinephone if I could install, and dual boot between, Ubuntu Touch and Replicant (Android) to the internal storage. I'd use UT whenever practical. But I'd likely need to boot into Replicant at least occasionally, at least until Anbox is better supported by UT.
I realize that you have plenty of other priorities, but I hope that offering a way to install at least two operating systems, and dual boot between them, is among your priorities.
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@GizmoChicken, all software is up to the community. We get support from Pine64 through specifications or (limited) access to engineers from component manufacturers, but Pine64 does not make software.
So if you'd like to see a dual-boot option, it's time to jump in!
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@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
all software is up to the community. We get support from Pine64 through specifications or (limited) access to engineers from component manufacturers, but Pine64 does not make software.
You aren't seriously suggesting that Pine64 relies on "the community" for every aspect of the boot process, are you?
In any case, in a post asking about a whether @PINE64 would be providing a script for installing to eMMC, @PINE64 stated: "I'll put together a 'rough' SD->eMMC image in time for when phones are delivered later this month." So @PINE64 seems to have more control over what will ship on the PinePhone than you seem realize.
@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
So if you'd like to see a dual-boot option, it's time to jump in!
I'm suggesting here, to @PINE64 (not to the UT devs), a feature that I feel would be welcomed by potential customers of his company. By doing so, I've jumped.
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I agree that the dual boot to Android option should be probably advertised to hedge with people unsure if they want to make the leap.
I am guessing, but it seems likely that you can already dual boot by swapping in a SD card with another system image and images for the Pine A64 should be reasonably close to get at least WiFi connectivity (cellular modem might be another story). For the A64 there are Android7 images: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/SOPINE_Software_Release
Fairphone 5 (waiting for port)
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@GizmoChicken said in PinePhone:
You aren't seriously suggesting that Pine64 relies on "the community" for every aspect of the boot process, are you?
[...] in a post asking about a whether @PINE64 would be providing a script for installing to eMMC, @PINE64 stated: "I'll put together a 'rough' SD->eMMC image in time for when phones are delivered later this month." So @PINE64 seems to have more control over what will ship on the PinePhone than you seem realize.
I'm not suggesting, I'm telling. The Pine64 Store makes hardware, we make software. We are a community. Our community includes PostMarketOS, the KDE Plasma Mobile developers, Manjaro, LuneOS, SailfishOS's community porters, Nemo Mobile... the list goes on and on. The Store itself is a member of our community.
We're on the same side here, man. The @PINE64 account is a collaboration among four long-standing Pine64 community members: TL, Lukasz, 'Gamiee', and 'fire219'. Any one of them could be putting the script together. That does make the "I'm" a bit confusing in this case. We can do better in the future.
I've been involved in the PinePhone project from the first time that Lukasz joined our IRC and asked if we wanted in. Yes, in a group with 2000 people, he implicitly announced the PinePhone before we even knew its specs. From the beginning, it's been clear: The Pine64 Store's staff members are making the hardware they can manage, with the features we request, at a price they believe is fair. They do not hire software engineers.
The Store has, however, allocated no-cost hardware to people that we've requested to receive it. Marius, NotKit, and I have received each revision of the PinePhone hardware. We're able to grow that with the Braveheart batch. It's a (capitalist/existential) win for the Pine64 Store, their hardware is far less expensive than our paid developers' salaries. It's a win for us (the community), we get made-for-us hardware.
Because of this, you are indeed requesting that we create a dual-boot option, not that they create a dual-boot option. You are requesting that we create an Android image.
The Pine64 Store has Veto Power in our community, they need to make the numbers work. I'm telling you now, though, the numbers don't work if they hire developers. Napkin math can tell me that.
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@poVoq I cannot imagine Android would make any sense to boot since it probably cannot interface with any of the hardware onboard the Pinephone.
My languages: 🇦🇹 🇩🇪 🇬🇧 🇺🇸
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@Flohack, there is movement in that direction. Replicant, the Free and Open Source Android ROM, seems like the best possible bet. However, like all of us, they're a small team and need all the help they can get. Just to get a single-boot setup running.
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@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
@GizmoChicken said in PinePhone:
You aren't seriously suggesting that Pine64 relies on "the community" for every aspect of the boot process, are you?
[...] in a post asking about a whether @PINE64 would be providing a script for installing to eMMC, @PINE64 stated: "I'll put together a 'rough' SD->eMMC image in time for when phones are delivered later this month." So @PINE64 seems to have more control over what will ship on the PinePhone than you seem realize.
I'm not suggesting, I'm telling. The Pine64 Store makes hardware, we make software. We are a community. Our community includes PostMarketOS, the KDE Plasma Mobile developers, Manjaro, LuneOS, SailfishOS's community porters, Nemo Mobile... the list goes on and on. The Store itself is a member of our community.
We're on the same side here, man. The @PINE64 account is a collaboration among four long-standing Pine64 community members: TL, Lukasz, 'Gamiee', and 'fire219'. Any one of them could be putting the script together. That does make the "I'm" a bit confusing in this case. We can do better in the future.
I've been involved in the PinePhone project from the first time that Lukasz joined our IRC and asked if we wanted in. Yes, in a group with 2000 people, he implicitly announced the PinePhone before we even knew its specs. From the beginning, it's been clear: The Pine64 Store's staff members are making the hardware they can manage, with the features we request, at a price they believe is fair. They do not hire software engineers.
The Store has, however, allocated no-cost hardware to people that we've requested to receive it. Marius, NotKit, and I have received each revision of the PinePhone hardware. We're able to grow that with the Braveheart batch. It's a (capitalist/existential) win for the Pine64 Store, their hardware is far less expensive than our paid developers' salaries. It's a win for us (the community), we get made-for-us hardware.
Because of this, you are indeed requesting that we create a dual-boot option, not that they create a dual-boot option. You are requesting that we create an Android image.
The Pine64 Store has Veto Power in our community, they need to make the numbers work. I'm telling you now, though, the numbers don't work if they hire developers. Napkin math can tell me that.
This is accurate
When I - Lukasz - wrote "I'll put together a SD->eMMC" that actually meant that that is something which I can do (Martjin Braam from PMOS ended up doing it, and most certainly better than I would). As for what Dalton wrote, we do indeed rely entirely on the partner-projects community devs for software. -
Is there currently an effort to make LineageOS or Android available on the Pinephone?
If not, would @GizmoChicken or anyone else like to be part of starting up an effort to do that?
I also think this would be a good thing, if I am following this conversation correctly.
Or is this considered to be too much work, not worth the effort right now compared to alternatives?
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@mirroronthewall, the main problem is the price. For what you're paying for a PinePhone, you can get a far better Android phone (new or used). If you want to run Android, it's just not a good purchase.
For example, a Pixel 1 which can run the newest LineageOS can be had for under $100 (shipping included) in the US. The PinePhone is not a compelling offer as an Android phone with those numbers.
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@UniSuperBox umidigi A5 pro ,shipped etc $ 87. Total. I ordered a braveheart to ,follow linux development ,its not a big expense really ,its a begining ,lets get it working nice and reliably, and then it will really take off
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@poVoq I cannot imagine Android would make any sense to boot since it probably cannot interface with any of the hardware onboard the Pinephone.
Why would that be the case? Android does run on the A64 development board and the early batches of the PinePhone even seem to have included a bootable but otherwise hardly functional Android version. In addition AFAIK most of the hardware is internally connected via the USB bus, thus standard Android drivers might work and already exist.
I am not saying that it will be super easy, but I looks like a far from impossible task especially if you are for example willing to run without the cellular modem in order to just use you Android banking app over WiFi or something like that.
P.s. no I am not planning to port Android to the Pinephone
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@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
For what you're paying for a PinePhone, you can get a far better Android phone (new or used). If you want to run Android, it's just not a good purchase.
For me, I'd want Android on the PinePhone as a fallback. That is, as I wrote before, "I'd use UT whenever practical. But I'd likely need to boot into Replicant at least occasionally, at least until Anbox is better supported by UT." So, although I wish that the PinePhone had better specs (and hope that a future version will have better specs), the low specs on the current version is not a deal breaker.
@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
We're on the same side here, man.
@UniSuperBox, yes, I fervently agree that we're on the same side. Perhaps we're just not communicating well in writing.
In this thread, @PINE64 expressed the possibility that "people say that they want a Linux phone, but in reality are not quite able to let go of their Android for iOS phones." In response, I informed @PINE64 that I would be more likely to buy a product produced by his company if that product offered a dual boot option. I also expressed that, in my opinion, it may be wise for Pine64 (the company) to hedge its bets by offering a way to dual boot between a pure Linux OS and Android from internal storage. And I concluded my post with "I realize that you have plenty of other priorities, but I hope that offering a way to install at least two operating systems, and dual boot between them, is among your priorities."
I'm not making any demands, just making a suggestion. As far as I'm concerned, @PINE64 is free to do with my suggestion whatever he sees fit, including ignoring it, or alternatively, reaching out to *other" members of the community, such as "PostMarketOS, the KDE Plasma Mobile developers, Manjaro, LuneOS, SailfishOS's community porters, Nemo Mobile... the list goes on and on" if UBports doesn't have the time or interest to explore a dual boot option for the PinePhone.
@UniSuperBox said in PinePhone:
So if you'd like to see a dual-boot option, it's time to jump in!
@UniSuperBox, given that we're on the same side, I assume that you hope that the PinePhone will, eventually, be an attractive option for the "average Joe" user, which is what I hope. (And no, I'm not talking about the "BraveHeard" edition, I'm talking eventually.)
If you hope that the PinePhone will, eventually, be an attractive option for the "average Joe" user, please stop with the if you want it, you build it type responses when I and others offer non-demanding suggestions. Otherwise, you'll be restricting interest in the community by orders of magnitude.
Peace.
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@GizmoChicken said in PinePhone:
If you hope that the PinePhone will, eventually, be an attractive option for the "average Joe" user, please stop with the if you want it, you build it type responses when I and others offer non-demanding suggestions. Otherwise, you'll be restricting interest in the community by orders of magnitude.
I think "if you want it, you build it" is the answer people make when the request seems a bit off topic.
Asking/suggesting a dual boot for android on this forum seems off topic to me.
IMHO if someone needs android so bad they can port it themselves, but not UBPorts community.Asking here : Does someone know if a dual boot on eMMC is planned ?
This (still imho) would have been a better way to do it.We always have to keep in mind that people dedicate a lot of personal time to this project so it's easy to get a bit emotional. The main goal HERE is to port UT on the PinePhone.
Other stuff can be very interesting, can be debated or can be junk, but I think we all agree that the goal is to have Ubuntu Touch running at its best on the PinePhone.To summarize I'm just pointing out that we need to be respectful of the hard work done and think about it when we ask questions. Because it's easy to have a bad understanding of someone's idea/question/remark.
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@GizmoChicken, I see, I came off too direct in my message. It's the German heritage, after all.
I'm not trying to say that you shouldn't make suggestions, but rather I'm responding to that single suggestion, saying it may not work out, and giving reasons for why. It's that position that I'm coming from, and only because Pine64 operates so differently from most organizations.
I keep the "if you want it, you build it" motto because, quite frankly, it's true. Maybe someone will make a dual-boot option, maybe someone will make an Android option... until those images are out, we can't promise anything. Making those promises and not delivering on them would make people upset. Meeting suggestions with silence will make people upset. I see now that responding to those suggestions will make people upset. There's no winning.
It is a position of frustration. Frustration that we know these things would make it more likely for your average Joe to buy the phone, but knowing that we can only promise what the device is right now, not what it could be if only we did something different. So maybe it isn't right for the average Joe, but it's right for us. And we'll keep making it better.
I'd rather tell you why things aren't realistic, even if it deflates your excitement, so you know what you're getting into with your purchase.
Also this is the UBports Forum, there is also the Pine64 forum if you'd like to stay up-to-date on all things PinePhone and discuss your suggestions. You might get a more useful response there: https://forum.pine64.org/
If you'd prefer I not respond, I guess that's okay. Sorry for being a bother.
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@mirroronthewall said in PinePhone:
Is there currently an effort to make LineageOS or Android available on the Pinephone?
Yes, Replicant is working to port Android to the PinePhone. Indeed, @Pine64 stated in this thread that "Down the road I think that Replicant will have a big install base."
So, when @Pine64 recently expressed the possibility that "people say that they want a Linux phone, but in reality are not quite able to let go of their Android for iOS phones.," in response, I suggested that such potential customers (namely, those who "say that they want a Linux phone, but in reality are not quite able to let go of their Android for iOS phones") may be more likely to buy a PinePhone if the PinePhone were able to dual boot between a pure Linux OS and Replicant (Android) from internal storage.
@mirroronthewall said in PinePhone:
I also think this would be a good thing, if I am following this conversation correctly.
Or is this considered to be too much work, not worth the effort right now compared to alternatives?UBports is rightfully focusing on other projects at the moment.
But as has been pointed out elsewhere, Pine64 (the company) has been working with many other members of the Linux phone community, including "PostMarketOS, the KDE Plasma Mobile developers, Manjaro, LuneOS, SailfishOS's community porters, Nemo Mobile... the list goes on and on."
So, perhaps upon realizing that overcoming any reasons that prevent a significant number of potential Linux phone users from buying a PinePhone will ultimately benefit the entire Linux phone community (such reasons including occasional reliance on some key Android apps), other members of the Linux phone community may decide to work out how to dual boot between a pure Linux OS and Replicant (Android) from internal storage on the PinePhone.
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My understanding Is that an OS on the SD Card takes over the EMMC, so should allow easily to have multiple OS on the go (at least, it works on Pinebook Pro, duknow for the legacy one).
And, an extra 2p, a cheap Andro*# phone would not have kill switches or the option just highlighted -
My understanding Is that an OS on the SD Card takes over the EMMC, so should allow easily to have multiple OS on the go (at least, it works on Pinebook Pro, duknow for the legacy one).
Yep, you are absolutely correct that the PinePhone can boot from the SD card.
But SD cards are slower, less reliable, and less convenient than internal eEMMC storage. Also, Average Joe doesn't want to carry around an SD card (which is easily lost or damaged) just to access his Android banking app (and nor do I).
To all who are reading this: I'm not suggesting that this is something that needs to be done tomorrow, next week, next month, or even within the next few months. However, given the glacial pace at which these projects progress, it's worth having these discussions now, in hopes that a dual boot feature will find its way to the PinePhone (or its successor) later this year, or maybe even next year.
But who knows, maybe Anbox will be fully functional on PinePhone by later this year, obviating the need for dual booting to Replicant (Android). But really, I suspect that even the most enthusiastic among us of doubts that will happen.
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It is quite true that handling the apk in a stable manner, whatever the method, will be a big plus for the pinphone as well as any other UT phone. Given the myriad of problems to be solved on all UT phones, I understand very well that this is not a priority. However, whether it's for the pinephone or other devices, updating the browser that is currently 'down' https://github.com/ubports/morph-browser/issues/223 is a far higher priority from my user's point of view : the user must not be restricted in these actions on a website.
