Telegram - some history, and vs. Signal

Diagon · 1 Nov 2021, 21:31

I was not allowed to post to a prior thread on Signal vs. Telegram, but since the issue remains relevant, I was directed here. Also, I'm being flagged as spam for the links, so I'll have to offer them in 3 or 4 posts.

Prior thread:
~https://forums.ubports.com/topic/3825/signal-vs-telegram/28

I just happen to have put together a list of links on Telegram. I suggest we stay far away from their "roll your own" crypto. That's the first thing you'll learn in a crypto class.

Moxie (whose "Double Ratchet" algorythm, Axolotl, is the basis of the Signal and also What's App) and Matt Green (John's Hopkins/zcash) are crypto experts. The Grugg is a well known infosec researcher, but I don't know his background as well. Durov is owner of Telegram.

Moxie's comment to Telegram/Durov:
Archive: ~
Archive: ~
Original: ~

Diagon · 1 Nov 2021, 21:30

Telegram crypto defeated (2013

Moxie's comment on their new crypo (2015

The Grugq (2015)

WaPo about their business dealings (2015)

Lakotaubp · 11 Jan 2021, 21:29

@diagon They are being flagged as spam for a reason as they are potentially that. You can also discuss any security issues you see in Telegram compared to other platforms in a way that does not include a long list of links without context that may be biased or trying to push one opinion (app favoured by the Islamic State). The links were removed before and I did say to be careful about posting off site links.

I'm sure a list of similar links can be found for any platfrom you can name. Why people use what they use is down to them (I don't use twitter for instance, mainly because I never wanted to) and open for general discussion but it is not a specific UT issue. Please try and develope your reasons without the links. Thanks

Diagon · 1 Nov 2021, 22:10

@lakotaubp - I'm sending links to discussions by experts, arrayed in chronological order so that people can see the progression of discussion. Links also include informed discussions at ycombinator and discusson of business dealings at the Washington Post and TechCrunch. For some reason you don't seem to want me to do that. So I have to ask, do you have an agenda here?

Keneda · 12 Jan 2021, 02:37

@lakotaubp

Correct me if i'm wrong, but spam is something throwed in mass somewhere it has nothing to do.

Here, if links are related to subject, and exempted from adds, spyware, or any malicious intention to the "clicker", i don't see why that should be removed...

Diagon · 12 Jan 2021, 03:36

@keneda It's truly remarkable. I appreciate that someone else is questioning what appears to be an arbitrary moderation policy here.

Pulsar33 · 12 Jan 2021, 06:03

Hello,
"Thread too old" : what a curious way to consider a forum.
A forum is not a chat, it is a place where information can be capitalized and retrieved by search commands. Too many subjects kills information ...

Anyway, Signal's time has come because of WhatsApp's ultimatum! The number of users increases exponentially
BR
Pulsar33

Lakotaubp · 12 Jan 2021, 07:18

@pulsar33 I believe your post was the first in 10 months in that thread which is quite a long time for a thread to be inactive and remain relavent. In most cases to revive a subject it can work better to start a new thread and refer back to the old one.
On a slightly different issue did you get a pop up about posting into an old thread etc. maybe that does take a bit longer to appear.

Pulsar33 · 1 Dec 2021, 07:45

@lakotaubp Yes I got a popup and I didn't think it was a good idea to follow the advice. As said above, a forum has to be optimized to retrieve the information you're looking for and too many threads make this difficult or impossible. I you search "Signal" your get more than 400 entries. Do you think this is a good thing ?
If you're looking only for fresh information, use chat or facebook or similar social application. A forum should be a reference database, not a diary and unfortunately, it's not the case here
BR
Pulsar33

AppLee · 12 Jan 2021, 08:48

Hi this thread is going off topic within itself.

So lets try to keep things on track please.
1- how the forum works
We try to keep information up-to-date, people come here to find help and information about Ubuntu Touch so most recent threads are more relevant.
While searching for Telegram if you find comment from 3 years ago about non yet working features of Teleports, this is misleading.

In this particular case the "old thread" was not the only reason to call for another thread.

2- Stay on topic
The original thread was open to help understand pros and cons about Signal and Telegram as alternatives to Whatsapp.
The recent posts were more a pledge against Telegram without argumentation within the post itself.

3- Avoid spam
Spam can be many things.
And posting a random link without explanation or context about what the reader might get after clicking is considered spam.
If someone wants to post a link, no problem.
Just tell us what to expect and why this is on topic and useful.
An external link should be about adding information not relevant to this forum. A link is no content.

Now this is not the place for such explanation about forum moderation, so if you want to post links, add context and explanation the forum is not a bookmark.

Pulsar33 · 1 Dec 2021, 10:15

I do not agree with your point 1. You manage the forum as you want but I have the right to say what I think about it.

The only thing I posted was in accordance with your points 2 and 3. It was :
@pulsar33 said in Telegram - some history, and vs. Signal:

Signal's time has come because of WhatsApp's ultimatum! The number of users increases exponentially

It's not my fault if the thread is going off topic

Have a nice day
Pulsar33

elastic · 12 Jan 2021, 10:21

three things:

if you trust the security of an app in regards of your data is totally up to you - I would always prefer open source for sensible communication as, at least, I could check the code - how often people actually checking it after every new commit or at all .... I never checked - neither Signal nor Telegram so I can say nothing about it I didn't get from another source ....
If you like the people behind the app, or what the are doing is a complete different thing - that's about social or political correctness, your own agenda, .... so you might say this or that guy doesn't fit my believes and attitudes, so I don't use his or her app - totally up to you - but you can't blame people for providing an anonymous tool for communication that then gets used by groups who are seeking for exactly that - that is out of control as soon as you started it (box of the pandora thing) if you want control it can't be that anonymous and vice versa ...
about freedom in forums - I have to second @Diagon here that links to sources should not be censored and marked as spam - even if a moderator is regarding them as biased - you can comment on this but deleting seems not right to me - its not a kids forum that needs adult moderation because the can't decide what's true and what's not ...
@Lakotaubp If you regard this forum as a company forum that only serves the purposes of UBports foundation then go on with rigid moderation rules - if this is a community forum you might want to think that through and allow communication and other points of view - for discussion purposes of course and in the right place - but off topic seems quite ok for off topic, doesn't is?

no offense meant to anyone - it's not my forum and will keep using it for information regardless of how strict it is moderated ...

AppLee · 12 Jan 2021, 11:35

OP can posts links if they take time to develop an argumentation around them.
We are all for discussion, but moderation is about drawing a line between discussion and troll (and it's not that easy).

For further discussion about moderation, I suggest to create another topic in the OT section and I'll be happy the answer there.
I think that's enough pollution on @Diagon 's thread.

Thanks for your understanding.

Diagon · 14 Jan 2021, 05:11

It seems to me that in addition to my astonishment that I am not being allowed to post on Telegram's "Roll Your Own" crypto and its dangers, in tandem with some information about Durov's business dealings, there appears to be in addition a history of conflicts over the nature of moderation on this site. My observation is that it's arbitrary and appears to reflect an agenda. Perhaps it is in addition obstructive in other ways. All I can say is, I have never seen such chaos on a technical forum. @Lakotaubp is clearly not up to the task of being a moderator. I do hope the UBP project itself is being run better.

TotalRando · 14 Jan 2021, 05:58

@diagon Wow, that was an unnecessarily nasty swipe. Having remembered being on the official Ubuntu forums a decade ago, there were a lot of rude people and I never got that vibe here. I wasn't a Telegram fan because of its "Find local illegal adult entertainment near you" feature and I believe Signal does no better, but to jump on a mod here because you get called out is stupid.

I saw this dumb bickering as a reason to support Matrix on the site and after finding Fluffy chat, my opinion is that we focus on video and calling for that, and now I see that was the right decision. In the words of Shakespeare, "A pox on both your houses!"

Lakotaubp · 14 Jan 2021, 07:15

@diagon Good Morning or whatever time of day it is where you are. Firstly no agenda, spin or underlying plan/scheme behind my decisions at all ever. That is not what we are about. Next I think @AppLee has expanded on the main reasons your post has been highlighted twice now. Except for this point and it might help. There is always an argument about removing links for whatever reason from threads unless they are totally and obviously offensive. Yours were getting flagged as spam so what to do. This time they were removed but I believe there is enough info left for people to do their own web search to find out where you are coming from without leaving them or the forum open to potential spam links.
As I have already said if you have reasons you prefer to use Signal over Telegram fine, please expand on them in a way no matter how technical and involved. A long list of links is not a reason for or against. We try hard to keep political and non UT dscussions off this Forum as it is not what it is here for and there are other and better places for that. We have no objection to robust discussion (and there have been a few) as long as it is conducted in a polite and friendly way. So please enjoy and feel to contribute along those lines. We also use this for reference https://ubuntu.com/community/code-of-conduct