Talk to the Non-Geek People

nero355

@keneda said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

@nero355 said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

Both Apple and Google don't offer anything like that so why should Ubuntu Touch ?!

Because Ubuntu Touch community has user in sight, all kind of user, and not all kind of income ^^

We should not look at what is not done by those gafam to act ourself.

True, but still : It's funny when you think about it!

doniks

@emphrath said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

Ok so do we agree here that there could be some sort of tutorial on the website that is almost the first thing you'll see ? A step by step presentation of the os and its core functionalities, with short videos interseded with short text explaining plainly how this all works, let's say, the differences and similarities with what people already know and some how tos organized in a summary, from the installation to, say, taking a screenshot (which I had to browse the forum to learn btw) ?

YES!

klh

@emphrath said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

[...] You don't want me to touch html code

Good thing is the docs are written in reStructuredText, no HTML involved and pretty easy to write in any text editor. Or I can convert an odf/docx file for you, if you want (and make some simple diagrams if you add photos/images/doodles/descriptions).

flohack

We need more technical writers that are skilled in English language. But here is the problem:

If you are a skilled technical writer you probably work in this profession and get paid in your day job - What is the motivation to additionally continue at end of business day to do the same stuff, but this time for free?
If you aren´t a skilled technical writer you will find out that becoming one needs a lot of practise and review from others that are skilled - and they need to spend time with you - go back to item 1.

Our allover contribution problem is: We cannot pay so many people to do stuff, and the hobbyists are not able to go that deep into all of that documentation matter since it needs continuous work for weeks, not only spend a few hours on the weekend. Since - the project is changing everyday, you need to follow that pace with the documents too.

nero355

@flohack
Doing stuff for free should not be an issue for people who like this project, but getting the right information about certain things from the developers does seem to be an issue!

I have already asked multiple times if we can get a list of phones that won't be supported by the 20.04 LTS upgrade and so far no one seems to be interested in giving us such a list ?!

Because IF we had one, then I could for example edit all the details of all the phones listed @ https://devices.ubports.io and add some kind of banner of something to warn people about the future upgrade path for those phones!

Another thing that really bothers me are this kind of comments :
@lakotaubp said in Ubuntu Touch Q&A 115 Is This Saturday At 19:00 UTC:

JFI WayDroid is now a totally seperate project to UBports and UT and as such is not a drain on resources.
As to whether it is good idea to run android apps on UT that is down to the individual themselves and in some cases maybe a way to avoid carrying two phones about. Don't forget in some places certain apps are all most if not already a requirement (covid ones for example). WayDroid maybe a good answer.

Why are we even talking about that kind of stuff here ?!

Someone who uses Ubuntu Touch should be someone who DOESN'T WANT that kind of apps on his phone at all either native or emulated !!!

Sometimes I have got the feeling that people just want a phone which is basically Android with a fancy skin on top!

There is even some idiot on the Jolla Sailfish Forum who actually sent an e-mail to his government and asking them for support of such apps on both Ubuntu Touch and Jolla Sailfish phones!
That's just ridiculous!

I also had a good laugh reading this : https://blog.brixit.nl/do-you-really-want-linux-phones/
It's written by a PostmarketOS developer and the guy is also active on another forum where I hang around a lot : We both had a lot of fun talking about that article!

TL;DR :

Which direction are we heading ?!
Is there any actualy future for Ubuntu Touch in beeing actually Ubuntu Touch with Convergence instead of just beeing another phone OS with a small marketshare and beeing able to run Android crApps ?!

Emphrath

@flohack i see your point, but I think we're talking about a different thing here. Maybe the documentation is indeed lacking as I see some prospective devs on this forum that struggle to find the info they need - but it's another matter totally. The issue here is what we show to people who want to know the daily things they can do with their os, and how they can do it. Since we, as users, have that knowledge, I don't see what prevents us from sharing that very much non-technical knowledge - the same way we would if we had to display UT possibilities to a friend or a relative

Lakotaubp

@nero355 Your opinons are your opinions and others are entitled to thiers it does not make them idiots. Nor do you have anymore right than anyone else to say who should or should not use UT, this forum or how they use it. Please show respect for others views and how they want to use their phones. Some of your comments are missing there mark.

nero355

@lakotaubp
So you would like to see those things happen ?!

REALLY ?!

I hope I am wrong or misunderstood you!

Lakotaubp

@nero355 It matters little what I think or use my phone for. What does matter is that everyone is welcome on this Forum as long as they follow the rules and discuss things in a polite and friendly manner. You can be robust, forthright but not rude or disrespectful of others views ir situation. Not everyone can avoid using android or iOS apps depending on their situation WayDroid may be the only way forward for them. Same with convergence, not everyone will want to run UT apps on a big screen. Doesn't mean they are wrong. Same with covid apps (whatever you think of covid) you may be required to use them. Having a native linux version woludbe ideal. Highly unlikely but not idiotic.
All points of view are welcome and welcome to be discussed within the Ubuntu code of conduct.That is all that matters.

https://ubuntu.com/community/code-of-conduct

Lundrin17

@nero355 the problem is i think that you don't understand other people's needs/wishes. You have your right to your opinion, and to use your phone however you'd like, but others do too. What i fail to understand is that you want to use your phone this way, why take avay the ability from others to use their phones that way. You seem to take aon offencein just suggesting to make it easyer fon newcommers to start understanding how the operating system works, but why? Some people from an untechnicall background, and the current stuff is not really understandable for them. That doesn't mean, they dont wish to learn, but I can speak from experience, it's not easy to start, when you don't even know where to start. Also for many people a computer or phone is a tool, that they must use for daily life, and not a second profession, that they must master to the core, or something that they want to study for hours upon hours just to understand some core functions. I don't think why that should be outrageous, and why UT should be some nieche hardcore stuff, that only the elitest of the elit can use, and why should there be only one proper way to use it. Open mindedness is i think what makes this community so great. I hope you understand my points, and not just call me another heritic. All the best

Keneda

@lundrin17
I'll add that if UT was for, and only for advanced users and "tech savy", then that would't be a security first based OS, we'd have a normal filesystem without click apps, like any other gnu/linux for mobile devices out there.

nero355

@lakotaubp said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

Not everyone can avoid using android or iOS apps depending on their situation WayDroid may be the only way forward for them.

It beats the purpose of having a phone that runs any OS that isn't one of those two : Why bother with such an OS when you are going to run Android apps on it anyway ?!

As long as there is such an option it prevents the development of NATIVE apps and applications and also the general advancement of the OS itself!

Same with convergence, not everyone will want to run UT apps on a big screen. Doesn't mean they are wrong.

People who don't see the bigger picture when it comes to Convergence are simply blinded by the whole apps concept that was forced upon us all about 12 years ago!

Same with covid apps (whatever you think of covid) you may be required to use them. Having a native linux version woludbe ideal. Highly unlikely but not idiotic.

If you really think that then I have no words to explain enough how disappointing that sounds!

We talk about freedom/freedom of choice and you think that something that takes your freedom away should be on our phones or even compatible with our OS ?!

DAMN...

@lundrin17 said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

The problem is i think that you don't understand other people's needs/wishes. You have your right to your opinion, and to use your phone however you'd like, but others do too. What i fail to understand is that you want to use your phone this way, why take avay the ability from others to use their phones that way.

I know damn well what the needs and wishes are but some of those needs and wishes or better said one in particular will ruin both of our lifes and I would rather NOT see that happen!

You seem to take aon offencein just suggesting to make it easyer fon newcommers to start understanding how the operating system works, but why? Some people from an untechnicall background, and the current stuff is not really understandable for them. That doesn't mean, they dont wish to learn, but I can speak from experience, it's not easy to start, when you don't even know where to start.

NONE of my phones that I ever bought in a store had any kind of documentation to teach me in a similar way how I can use my phone : Why should Ubuntu Touch have such a thing ?!
Is the OS not straightforward enough ??

The only thing I can see happening is some kind of tutorial in the OS itself that shows you some basics after the first boot like many phones have for the last couple of years...

Also for many people a computer or phone is a tool, that they must use for daily life, and not a second profession, that they must master to the core, or something that they want to study for hours upon hours just to understand some core functions.

Then they can buy the Volla Phone with Ubuntu Touch preinstalled and be happy with it!

I don't think why that should be outrageous, and why UT should be some nieche hardcore stuff, that only the elitest of the elit can use, and why should there be only one proper way to use it.

That's not what I am saying at all but you have to realize that we are already in our "niche bubble" and will probably stay inside it for a very long time so we might as well have an OS that suits our needs and not focus on "Joe Average" the whole time because that group of people simply isn't using the phone right now!

Think about how many things there are missing in the OS right now and still need to be added like all the features of :

In case you have a Jolla Sailfish phone laying around : Compare all the Settings both OS have and be shocked by the fact about how many there missing in Ubuntu Touch

And don't get me started about the comparison vs. Android Settings and the Developer Options part of it for example...

Open mindedness is i think what makes this community so great.

That's great, but I think a lot of people are seeing the whole thing through some kind of glasses that makes them unsee a lot of issues that simply can't be avoided!

@keneda said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

I'll add that if UT was for, and only for advanced users and "tech savy", then that would't be a security first based OS, we'd have a normal filesystem without click apps, like any other gnu/linux for mobile devices out there.

As long as we have a situation where you have to flash your phone with a completely different OS then it will be a thing for Advanced and Geeky people who are Tech-Savvy indeed!

And since Ubuntu Touch was all about your phone beeing also your Desktop it wouldn't be bad at all if you could use Desktop Applications without messing around with Libertine too!

Lundrin17

@nero355 if you don't ever need to use any android or windows apps, than I honestly envy you. For me personally it's a much better compromise to emulate those few apps that i need from those abhorrent os-es on one that i like, than run them for those few apps, and miss out everything else which UT or desktop linux distros posess. You don't need tu use waydroid, but i don't think that the option that it is there is bad. The more options is the better, there's no scenario in my mind, where less choise is better. And yes, currently we are a very small niche community, but that doesn-t mean we should be uninviting to regular andy. And throughout this post you can see that even in this small community peoples opinion can vary, some want android apps, some want native, some want convergence, some better browsing experience etc (just the top of my head). Theres no one and only true and righteous way, and only that, and others are not idiot, simply because they would like different things. The best would be to have all, and to have a choice which to use (i see that is currently not possible, but lets not belitle and insult the other for having a different feature in mind, than oneself)

Lakotaubp

@nero355 Please remember UT as an OS was developed for mobile devices. It was not ever intended to be a desktop operating system or run desktop apps full stop. This one has run for ever and it will not change. If you want something else find it and use it.

@nero355 said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

We talk about freedom/freedom of choice and you think that something that takes your freedom away should be on our phones or even compatible with our OS ?!
DAMN...

Everyone here or using UT does have freedom of choice. They can do what they want with their phones so can you. You want UT only then keep it that way. UT native apps then help develop them. Do something not just point out where everyone else is going wrong, having their freedom removed or are idiots. That is the point of opensource so I thought, use as you will, help others along the way and don't use it in a malicious way. Or have I missed something.

Feel free to state your case but do it in a polite way it is time to stop hinting that others views are incorrect, stupid, idiotic and such. It's not what we do. Also the ironic winking faces are not working or needed as I have mentioned before.

nero355

@lundrin17 said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

if you don't ever need to use any android or windows apps, than I honestly envy you.

I have different devices for different purposes :

Android phone for Android stuff, although I don't need a lot to be honest : I am not one of those people with hundreds of apps on their phone, while 95% or more can be replaced by visiting the website!

For me personally it's a much better compromise to emulate those few apps that i need from those abhorrent os-es on one that i like, than run them for those few apps, and miss out everything else which UT or desktop linux distros posess.

Basically what I need is :

Terminal
Browser
Telegram

And all my devices support those, except for Android when it comes to a Terminal so I grab my PC/Laptop/whatever runs a proper Linux version on it!

On top of that :

LibreOffice like stuff.
Some kind of photo editor
Some tools like ADB which can run on both Windows and Linux

And for example Kubuntu offers all of that out of the box!

I see Android as deperecated and only use it for a quick Firefox Search or the official Telegram Client because it's simply better in certain things than TELEports at the moment.
My Ubuntu Touch phone is pretty much the main phone at the moment

The Jolla Sailfish phone is just an experiment with a battery drain issue so let s ignore that one for now...

You don't need tu use waydroid, but i don't think that the option that it is there is bad. The more options is the better, there's no scenario in my mind, where less choise is better.

If less choice means better and more development of Native Apps and Applications then I would say that is the better choice!

And yes, currently we are a very small niche community, but that doesn-t mean we should be uninviting to regular andy.

But what if beeing inviting isn't possible at the moment because of the attitude of most people in general ?!

People don't want to learn or try new things in general!
That's why we are a niche...

And throughout this post you can see that even in this small community peoples opinion can vary, some want android apps, some want native, some want convergence, some better browsing experience etc (just the top of my head). Theres no one and only true and righteous way, and only that, and others are not idiot, simply because they would like different things.

Most of those things will level out in the end, but that one case of a "not so smart guy" who wants his government following him on his non-Google or non-Apple phone is just weird in soo many ways...

You have to admit that ?!

The best would be to have all, and to have a choice which to use (i see that is currently not possible, but lets not belitle and insult the other for having a different feature in mind, than oneself)

You can buy a PinePhone and have it all, but it's not ready as a daily phone so you have to make choices, however they are not really a huge issue IMHO

Lakotaubp

@nero355 Just to point out if anyone wants to track anyone switching on your phone is a big risk. If you run Android or iOS with location on all the info anybody needs is already there. It's tracking you. No covid app required. You are mixing things up and serving it up to match your view. Street cameras, video door bells on and on and on. Not having a covid app does not make you invisable. having one does not mean you are being tracked 24hrs a day. Please stop with these theories this is not the right place.

nero355

@lakotaubp said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

@nero355 Just to point out if anyone wants to track anyone switching on your phone is a big risk.

Don't overreact please...

If you run Android or iOS with location on all the info anybody needs is already there. It's tracking you. No covid app required.

That's why :

I will never buy an iOS device.
My current Android phone is not a Google Android phone!

You are mixing things up and serving it up to match your view. Street cameras, video door bells on and on and on. Not having a covid app does not make you invisable. having one does not mean you are being tracked 24hrs a day.

So because the situation is bad already we should allow it to get even worse ?!

Please stop with these theories this is not the right place.

When someone wants to ruin one of my favorite OS options for a phone then this is the right place!

Lakotaubp

@nero355 No one is trying or going to ruin your favorite OS. People just want to be free to use it as they see fit not you. Which is why we are here.
This is now getting way off topic for this thread. If you want to carry on then may I suggest you start a thread in Off Topic on what is wrong or being ruined with UT.
The rest of the Forum is for discussions directly involved with improving and using UT on the currently supported devices.
If you do so please remember that the normal Forum rules still apply. I am not going to point them out again.

Lundrin17

@nero355

If less choice means better and more development of Native Apps and Applications then I would say that is the better choice!

But since nobody is held back from making native apps by having waydroid here, I still don't see the reason. I mean if waydroid would sease to exist tomorrow, there still wouldn't be more apps on openstore.

But what if beeing inviting isn't possible at the moment because of the attitude of most people in general ?!

Yes, it is possible. Not in huge numbers, but there are people, who for this reason or that would be interested. And even if it werent, why would it hurt you, if there's a quick noob friendly welcome tutorial only for the possybility? The original purpose of this thread was that. if someone with zero knowlage would just get here, look around, and wouldn't even know where to start, they would rather not at all.

Also you've told very much about your daily use of your phone, which is fine, but it still isn't the only way to use it. some people need banking applications, some only want to use discord. To alvays have two phones at you is uncomfortable and not practical for most people, especially if it is only to preserve some thinked up purity of UT or idk. I need only one android app, and it's shure as hell i won't have a second phone for that on me.

Also ideologies aside, how would a third party app, which you dont have to install ruin the os?

nero355

@lundrin17 said in Talk to the Non-Geek People:

Also ideologies aside, how would a third party app, which you dont have to install ruin the os?

At the moment you can simply say "NO!" when someones asks you about it!

When such an app actually exists you can get forced to use it in the end or have to lie about it...