Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04

spctrl

In the last Q&A Dalton gave a list of devices that will be supported with UT based on Ubuntu 20.04[1]. Unsurprisingly, the BQ4.5 isn't in that list.

To me the support for the BQ4.5 has always been a bit of a roller coaster. It was sold and supported by Caniconal, then dropped. UBPorts took over, but they weren't able to give proper support to the legacy devices. Eventually they were able to give proper support, but even when the upgrade to 16.04 happened, it was already clear that an upgrade to 18.04 or 20.04 may mean the device wouldn't be supported any more.

I think the development team has done a great job giving us a supported and well working 7 year old device. I for one thank them for that.

But now that this support will most probably end, the question is; What now? On the one hand I want to keep using UT because I really like it. On the other hand, I don't want my phone to be left in a drawer somewhere collecting dust, so what else can we run on it after the update to 20.04 happens?

I looked around a bit, but I don't really see options honestly.
We can keep using UT based on 16.04, but that means no more updates. Eventually it wont be (easily) possible to install apps (unless maybe the click-packages will be kept available somewhere online and we can download and install from there), and it may not be (easily) possible to install UT back to the device (unless the images and instructions are kept available somewhere).
I also looked around for other OS'es I know about, but none of them seem to have a port for the BQ4.5.
I looked for the following, but don't see ports for Lineageos (Besides, I'm unsure how well this would work on an Ubuntu edition device since it doesn't have the Android buttons), PostmarketOS, SailfishOS, LuneOS, Manjaro and Mobian

That doesn't leave much options of course. Maybe someone has other OS'es or ports they know of that can run on the BQ4.5? What are you planning to do once support ends?

[1] See Q&A 115 at 34:22. The list is

Pixel 3a
Volla Phone
Volla Phone X
XPeriaX
Anything else people come in to do

CiberSheep

@spctrl Hello. I'm afraid there is little to do here.

Leave it on 16.04 and play games with it, or read, or listen to podcasts.
Port or hire someone to develop and port the kernel (see some links https://forums.ubports.com/topic/6790/device-tree-list)
Kiss and say good by, embrace newer devices. We have all gone through this one day or another

I know, it's sad but we must be grateful for all these years of happiness

MrT10001

The problem UT has is the devices they are porting to are too expensive to be a viable option - the Volla phones are nice, but for a fraction of the cost of a Volla phone you can get an Android based phone, that basically does all that is required that UT doesn't.
From reading around, two types of people are using UT, enthusiasts and/or Google/Apple avoiders.
I bought two of the BQ4.5 when they first were released. It became clear pretty quickly why they wouldn't be mainstream -cost and app support. Mainstreamers use iOS and Android as it is all done for you. UT does not.
I sold one on (regrettably) and still use the other, it is still a great cheap phone.
I am an avid user of Linux and UT has really peaked my interest. If I could code and had more time I would port and develop. I know there are reasons why devices are left behind, but in some cases so what, they are still viable until spare parts run out.
I come from a PC repair/ electronics fault finding background. I strongly believe in repurposing stuff so it doesn't go into landfill. I see UT as future where you make the phone OS yours, where telemetry and personal data is yours and not some foreign conglomerates.

Like all things, when 20.04 comes along, 22.04 will be the next thing so the cycle will be repeated, but this with UT will need help of enthusiasts, volunteers, porters and coders.
There were reasons Canonical dropped UT and allowed the community to take over. And of course look at the way the Windows phones went.

The main thing though that will kill a lot of older devices is 2G and 3G being made redundant. But hey there is still Wi-Fi and with a bit of innovation, that 4.5 inch tablet will have a purpose for something.

AppLee

Hi, I'd like to take the opportunity of this thread to point out several things.

The first one is the list given by Dalton is not a decision made or something definitive for other phones.

This leads to my next point, what the UBports foundation can do and what the UBports community can do.

The UBports foundation is maintaining Ubuntu Touch (the OS).
And the move to 20.04 is necessary as 16.04 is not maintained anymore.
But 20.04 has some constraints regarding the kernel.

On the port side of things, updating the kernel for a given phone is not easy or even impossible...
If a version of android 9 or 10 was made for the device, then a port based on halium is possible.
But in case of old phone abandoned by manufacturers a long time ago building a recent enough kernel for the device and using the existing firmware is almost impossible or very expensive and difficult.

The foundation does not have the ressources to make a 20.04 compatible port for older, marginally used phones.
Maintainers might not have the required time, resources and knowledge to do it either.
So some devices will be left over on 16.04 without updates because maintaining the 16.04 branch is to expensive for the UBports foundation.

So if you want a specific device to survive, you'll need to get in touch with the porter for this device and ask them if they are still willing to do the job or to assist.
Then you'll have to gather people willing to help to bring create a port compatible with 20.04 requirements.
This is a community matter and effort to save a specific device.

For the BQ4.5, I do not know what can be done but it seems a very difficult task.
As @CiberSheep wrote, you have several options but overall it's a good thing this device was available for that long.

MrT10001

@applee And that is the good answer and the answer I got from the Q&A sessions on YouTube. It is just a shame that these devices are not like PC's, where although things aren't the same, there is a kind of standard, i.e. x86 CPU's, RAM etc. so a lot of stuff at the front end works (or gives a damn good appearnce of working).
I also got from the Q&A is the biggest issue is having the right people and time. We all have lives and with all that has been done with UT on peoples own time has been absolutely fantastic. Unfortunately at the moment my time is limited and concentration is a struggle, if I could contribute more I would, I have three devices lined up to port without the installer, so I can start getting a better feel for it.

AppLee

@mrt10001
With all due respect, your believes about desktop or laptops is wrong.
There is no standard thing, it's just a traditional computer is less complex than a mobile phone.

There is rarely support for fingerprint readers on laptops for example.
And what is considered standard on a phone is far from usual on other computer stations like GPS, 2G, 3G, 4G (and now 5G) modems, accelerometer, ...

Laptops and desktop computers are simpler and the user base is way larger then for the mobile platforms.
This explains the feeling that PC are well supported while phone and tablets are not.

The reality is that manufacturers mostly don't care and support for Linux is minimum.
Drivers may exist but are rarely open sourced neither is their API available...
This problem has seen no real improvement since the begining of Linux and only a faster and stronger community and some big company's policy improved the situation for end users.

Hopefully Pine64, Volla, F(x)Tech and others will see the benefit of working with the FOSS communities.

cliffcoggin

@applee said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

The first one is the list given by Dalton is not a decision made or something definitive for other phones.

If that is true Dalton should either retract or amend the statement. He was clearly under pressure at the time, but the wrong information is worse than no information.

spctrl

@cliffcoggin The way I understood those words are "these devices have porters we know, so we're pretty confident that they will get the needed attention". Hence the last on the list being "Anything else people come in to do". I don't think they can really say more, because they don't know more themselves.

The thing is just that we know it's gonna be a pain for non-Halium devices, because they've already explained that in a previous Q&A. And frankly, if I were to spent time porting, I'd probably focus on a different, more available, device myself.

I won't even be disappointed if the device turns out to not be supported any more. I'm very happy that it lasted so long and I think that's a wonderful achievement on behalf of everyone involved!

AppLee

@cliffcoggin

As @spctrl mentioned, the list given by Dalton is not a death penalty for other phones.
And that's what I meant in my sentence...

The discussion continued and started at minute #38, a more open answer was made by Florian.
So focus from the foundation is on those devices to MAKE Ubuntu Touch 20.04.
The devices that will benefit from it and can handle the changes need porters willing to do the necessary job which is unknown at the moment (the workload AND the porters).

cliffcoggin

@applee I appreciate that lack of suitable personnel is going to affect the outcome, but given that appeals for new people to step forward and work on the project have fallen on deaf ears for the last six months, it is unrealistic to expect that situation to change in the near future. In other words the core team at UB Ports is not going to increase in the way it wants and needs in order to achieve all its goals, so some of those goals must be sacrificed. That is a straightforward management issue that should not be avoided any longer, no matter how unpopular the decision will be in some quarters.

The question of what phones will be kept and what will be sacrificed has been side-stepped for quite a while. I, and probably others here, would like some clarity in the matter. If that means my phone will die, so be it. At least I can plan for the next one once I have a firm decision.

domubpkm

It doesn't matter if there are no evolutions, new features for the first generation smartphones: what matters is that they can continue to work as much as possible, that the system can be reinstalled in case of problems, that the .clicks remain accessible, and if eventually some security-only updates can be made, that would be a plus.

AppLee

@cliffcoggin
I see your POV.
In this case your best bet is the list given by Dalton.
But the phone you're currently using might be saved but at the moment it cannot be said because unless trying to port it to 20.04 there is no know criteria to say if it will be easy or not to maintain this phone.

As for @domubpkm comment, this is also a good question.
And IMHO a better one than asking for a list of devices.
Maybe it can be asked on the next Q&A.

I don't know the effort required to maintain those.
I bet clicks can be available for some time like it was before 16.04 on the open-store
And reinstalling old release is a matter of disk space as far as I can tell, ... so maybe.

MrT10001

@applee I agree with what you say, but there is a larger base of phone and tablet users than PC's now, just looking at sales from DELL and HP will tell you that. I remember struggling back on Ubuntu 8.04 and early versions of Puppy compiling wireless drivers whilst having Windows crammed down our throats as the best thing ever, and more recent with Broadcomm drivers. Now a lot of stuff due to what has gone on in the past, private enterprise and some manufacturers, PC support has improved massively.
The same should be happening with mobile devices, but alas manufacturers won't do it unless there is Government intervention to force the initiative of longer device life span , so you end up with Pine and Volla trying to compete in a saturated market that is governed by two companies, Apple and Google. Microsoft were late to the table and look what has happened there.
The reason why I say computers are standard as such, is I can take my old Intel P4Q6600 setup and install Linux or Windows 10 on it and it works. I can install Linux on an old Intel Macbook, it works.
I know tablets and phones are different to a PC or notebook, experience and coming here and reading up on porting has told me that. I do not want to see UT go the way of the Windows phone or be forgotten about and become extinct. I will support it to the best of my ability.

Moem

@mrt10001 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

I do not want to see UT go the way of the Windows phone or be forgotten about and become extinct. I will support it to the best of my ability.

Quoted for truth and for displaying a great mentality.

Josele13

@spctrl Keeping such old devices is a waste of time and money. A Bq will not give you the satisfaction of use of a Pixel 3a, Xiaomi , Fairphone , Oppo or a Vollaphone, change mobile ,use it with the latest Ut features and keep that jewel, be proud to have the first mobile with Ubuntu touch, mine is already dead.

Regards...

Moem

@josele13 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

Keeping such old devices is a waste of time and money.

Time... okay, I can see that. But money? How so?

Personally I feel that it's fine to waste time, as long as the time your waste is yours to waste.

mardy

I've had a similar discussion with Dalton in Telegram, because I'm working on the FM radio service and getting it to work on the BQ devices requires a new kernel for them, and this led to a discussion about what we can do for them.

I'm certainly willing to spend some of my time to keep these devices up, but that might not be enough: from the UBports Foundation point of view, supporting a device means (and here I might even not be aware of all the implications!) having all the CI machinery to generate the images for the updates, not to mention the time spent by humans for bug triaging.

I guess that if we could reduce the involvement of the UBports Foundation to "just" produce a unified armhf rootfs for all these devices, that would be much easier for them, and we could probably expect a relatively high level of quality. But that means that the device maintainer would have to take care of producing the OTA images and diffs, and provide storage for them. GitLab CI can certainly help, but it's clear that the amount of work that would fall on the shoulders of the device maintainer (at least initially) is huge.

Do we have a team of volunteers, who do understand enough of the OTA machinery to setup a similar project, which might or might not be hosted by the UBports Foundation? I'm certainly willing to help, but it's not something I can drive myself. And I don't think we should ask anyone who's actively working in the Foundation to spend time on this.

If we manage to form a group, and find someone willing (and capable) of leading the project, then there's some hope. Otherwise, well, I guess these devices will have to live with Xenial for how long they can.

Josele13

@moem The Bq and other older phones will not support the features of ubuntu 20.04, you will pay a developer to adjust the kernel ... then it will not work half of the apps and not to call, it has no VOLTE,

You have spent the money..

Moem

@josele13 Ah, you mean 'to keep the device supported', not just 'to keep the device (and eventually use it in its unsupported state)'.
Thank you for making that clear.

nero355

@spctrl said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

In the last Q&A Dalton gave a list of devices that will be supported with UT based on Ubuntu 20.04[1]. Unsurprisingly, the BQ4.5 isn't in that list.

I think all BQ devices will become EOL and that's is just fine, but what about the rest ?!

I think the development team has done a great job giving us a supported and well working 7 year old device. I for one thank them for that.

+1

But now that this support will most probably end, the question is : What now?

Well, I thought the following would be possible :

Keep using the 16.04 LTS release without OS updates/upgrades.
Keep using the apps that will still work with the 16.04 LTS as long as they do...

Basically what I am doing with my current Android based ZUK Z2 Pro phone

On the one hand I want to keep using UT because I really like it. On the other hand, I don't want my phone to be left in a drawer somewhere collecting dust, so what else can we run on it after the update to 20.04 happens?

You can't use anything else because of the same reason you won't be able to upgrade to 20.04 LTS Release : The damn old MediaTek SoC and all the negative stuff that comes with the fact it's a MediaTek SoC

I looked around a bit, but I don't really see options honestly.

Because there are no options!

Eventually it wont be (easily) possible to install apps (unless maybe the click-packages will be kept available somewhere online and we can download and install from there), and it may not be (easily) possible to install UT back to the device (unless the images and instructions are kept available somewhere).

You could check if you can boot TWRP one time and then Image your phone so you have a working backup!

I also looked around for other OS'es I know about, but none of them seem to have a port for the BQ4.5.

YUP!

I looked for the following, but don't see ports for Lineageos
(Besides, I'm unsure how well this would work on an Ubuntu edition device since it doesn't have the Android buttons),

The buttons should work but they don't have a LED that shows which button does what!

I have been running Android 5.x for a while after that cruel Canonical April 1st announcement

PostmarketOS, SailfishOS, LuneOS, Manjaro and Mobian
That doesn't leave much options of course. Maybe someone has other OS'es or ports they know of that can run on the BQ4.5? What are you planning to do once support ends?

Like I said : NOPE.AVI

@applee said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

There is rarely support for fingerprint readers on laptops for example.

I think that depends on the brand that is used by the manufacturer of the laptop ?!

And what is considered standard on a phone is far from usual on other computer stations like GPS, 2G, 3G, 4G (and now 5G) modems, accelerometer, ...

Laptops with a modem are very common as long as you stay away from the consumer stuff and go towards professional/enterprise models

The reality is that manufacturers mostly don't care and support for Linux is minimum.
Drivers may exist but are rarely open sourced neither is their API available...
This problem has seen no real improvement since the begining of Linux and only a faster and stronger community and some big company's policy improved the situation for end users.

AMD and Intel have pretty much changed that completely and are now the two brands you really want to buy in case you are a Linux user

Nvidia however is on the edge of getting deprecated and even banned in some cases like the LibreELEC project for example!

Hopefully Pine64, Volla, F(x)Tech and others will see the benefit of working with the FOSS communities.

Pine64 does that already I think ?!

The other two however... dunno... seem to be more Android focused than non-Android ?!
Especially F(x)Tech and the horrible mess that their company is for example RMA wise... brr...

@cliffcoggin said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:

That is a straightforward management issue that should not be avoided any longer, no matter how unpopular the decision will be in some quarters.

To be honest :

I think UBports has a managemend issue in general :

They need to have some kind of plan when it comes to porting to certain phone models for example!
At the moment it seems all a bit random ?!
Details about which phones will be compatible with 20.04 LTS are still unavailable...
etc...

Is there even someone in their team to manage the whole project ?!