Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04
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I've had a similar discussion with Dalton in Telegram, because I'm working on the FM radio service and getting it to work on the BQ devices requires a new kernel for them, and this led to a discussion about what we can do for them.
I'm certainly willing to spend some of my time to keep these devices up, but that might not be enough: from the UBports Foundation point of view, supporting a device means (and here I might even not be aware of all the implications!) having all the CI machinery to generate the images for the updates, not to mention the time spent by humans for bug triaging.
I guess that if we could reduce the involvement of the UBports Foundation to "just" produce a unified armhf rootfs for all these devices, that would be much easier for them, and we could probably expect a relatively high level of quality. But that means that the device maintainer would have to take care of producing the OTA images and diffs, and provide storage for them. GitLab CI can certainly help, but it's clear that the amount of work that would fall on the shoulders of the device maintainer (at least initially) is huge.
Do we have a team of volunteers, who do understand enough of the OTA machinery to setup a similar project, which might or might not be hosted by the UBports Foundation? I'm certainly willing to help, but it's not something I can drive myself. And I don't think we should ask anyone who's actively working in the Foundation to spend time on this.
If we manage to form a group, and find someone willing (and capable) of leading the project, then there's some hope. Otherwise, well, I guess these devices will have to live with Xenial for how long they can.
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@moem The Bq and other older phones will not support the features of ubuntu 20.04, you will pay a developer to adjust the kernel ... then it will not work half of the apps and not to call, it has no VOLTE,
You have spent the money..
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@josele13 Ah, you mean 'to keep the device supported', not just 'to keep the device (and eventually use it in its unsupported state)'.
Thank you for making that clear. -
@spctrl said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
In the last Q&A Dalton gave a list of devices that will be supported with UT based on Ubuntu 20.04[1]. Unsurprisingly, the BQ4.5 isn't in that list.
I think all BQ devices will become EOL and that's is just fine, but what about the rest ?!
I think the development team has done a great job giving us a supported and well working 7 year old device. I for one thank them for that.
+1
But now that this support will most probably end, the question is : What now?
Well, I thought the following would be possible :
- Keep using the 16.04 LTS release without OS updates/upgrades.
- Keep using the apps that will still work with the 16.04 LTS as long as they do...
Basically what I am doing with my current Android based ZUK Z2 Pro phone
On the one hand I want to keep using UT because I really like it. On the other hand, I don't want my phone to be left in a drawer somewhere collecting dust, so what else can we run on it after the update to 20.04 happens?
You can't use anything else because of the same reason you won't be able to upgrade to 20.04 LTS Release : The damn old MediaTek SoC and all the negative stuff that comes with the fact it's a MediaTek SoC
I looked around a bit, but I don't really see options honestly.
Because there are no options!
Eventually it wont be (easily) possible to install apps (unless maybe the click-packages will be kept available somewhere online and we can download and install from there), and it may not be (easily) possible to install UT back to the device (unless the images and instructions are kept available somewhere).
You could check if you can boot TWRP one time and then Image your phone so you have a working backup!
I also looked around for other OS'es I know about, but none of them seem to have a port for the BQ4.5.
YUP!
I looked for the following, but don't see ports for Lineageos
(Besides, I'm unsure how well this would work on an Ubuntu edition device since it doesn't have the Android buttons),The buttons should work but they don't have a LED that shows which button does what!
I have been running Android 5.x for a while after that cruel Canonical April 1st announcement
PostmarketOS, SailfishOS, LuneOS, Manjaro and Mobian
That doesn't leave much options of course. Maybe someone has other OS'es or ports they know of that can run on the BQ4.5? What are you planning to do once support ends?Like I said : NOPE.AVI
@applee said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
There is rarely support for fingerprint readers on laptops for example.
I think that depends on the brand that is used by the manufacturer of the laptop ?!
And what is considered standard on a phone is far from usual on other computer stations like GPS, 2G, 3G, 4G (and now 5G) modems, accelerometer, ...
Laptops with a modem are very common as long as you stay away from the consumer stuff and go towards professional/enterprise models
The reality is that manufacturers mostly don't care and support for Linux is minimum.
Drivers may exist but are rarely open sourced neither is their API available...
This problem has seen no real improvement since the begining of Linux and only a faster and stronger community and some big company's policy improved the situation for end users.AMD and Intel have pretty much changed that completely and are now the two brands you really want to buy in case you are a Linux user
Nvidia however is on the edge of getting deprecated and even banned in some cases like the LibreELEC project for example!
Hopefully Pine64, Volla, F(x)Tech and others will see the benefit of working with the FOSS communities.
Pine64 does that already I think ?!
The other two however... dunno... seem to be more Android focused than non-Android ?!
Especially F(x)Tech and the horrible mess that their company is for example RMA wise... brr...
@cliffcoggin said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
That is a straightforward management issue that should not be avoided any longer, no matter how unpopular the decision will be in some quarters.
To be honest :
I think UBports has a managemend issue in general :
- They need to have some kind of plan when it comes to porting to certain phone models for example!
At the moment it seems all a bit random ?! - Details about which phones will be compatible with 20.04 LTS are still unavailable...
- etc...
Is there even someone in their team to manage the whole project ?!
My phones :
- BQ Aquaris E5 HD Ubuntu Phone Edition - Ubuntu Touch 16.04 LTS
- ZUK Z2 Pro - ZUI Android 8.x
- Xiaomi Mi 9T - Jolla SailFish 3.4.x Community Build
P.S. : I am NOT a developer! ;)
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@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
They need to have some kind of plan when it comes to porting to certain phone models for example!
At the moment it seems all a bit random ?!Well, most of the porting is done by the community, that means by volunteers, to their abilities and at their leisure. You can't really plan for what volunteers all over the world may or may not be willing and able to do; they're not employees after all. In other words, from its very nature, it will always be a bit random.
On a strictly personal title: can you please refrain from telling the team what they need to do, must do or have to do? It sounds so demanding.
I know you probably don't mean it like that but it does come across that way. -
@moem
So all porting is done by the community and none by the UBports developers ?!That would explain a lot!
But it does create a large issue : The purchase of a certain phone becomes a gamble and you can't plan ahead when you buy a certain phone!
Buying second hand phones isn't a problem, but it needs to be a bit reasonable because of the whole battery issues part...
Do you see yourself buying a phone that's older than 2 or 3 years ?!
That's basically creating a challenge for yourself... -
@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
So all porting is done by the community and none by the UBports developers ?!
Please read what I wrote. Not all porting, but most of it. And that explains why the devs cannot guarantee what the porters will or won't do, and also why they cannot come up with a reliable list of devices that will definitely remain supported. They can only tell us what they, themselves, have planned.
Personally I have never bought a phone that was younger than three years. My current daily driver is from 2016. We're all different.
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To be honest :
I think UBports has a managemend issue in general :
- They need to have some kind of plan when it comes to porting to certain phone models for example!
At the moment it seems all a bit random ?! - Details about which phones will be compatible with 20.04 LTS are still unavailable...
- etc...
Is there even someone in their team to manage the whole project ?!
I think the reality is much more complex than that.
Our core team collaborates mainly in open discussions so that everyone's work is as effective as possible.The functioning of UBports is not comparable to that of a traditional commercial company based on performance and profit.
- They need to have some kind of plan when it comes to porting to certain phone models for example!
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@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
Well, I thought the following would be possible :
Keep using the 16.04 LTS release without OS updates/upgrades.
Keep using the apps that will still work with the 16.04 LTS as long as they do...Basically what I am doing with my current Android based ZUK Z2 Pro phone
That's what i'm going to do, as i also did after canonical drop.
I stayed 2 years with their last OTA using Open Store.
This time i hope by there Pinephone(s) will be full working devices, i'd really prefer open source hardware so no more vendor obsolescence. -
@nero355 My newest phone for UT is a OP5 and that was over two years old when I got it. Before that it was a OP3 and a OP1. Have replaced the OP1 battery but all still work and I have another OP5 to do when I can. Looking good for this https://ubports.com/blog/ubports-news-1/post/ubuntu-touch-and-the-10-year-smartphone-3799
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All this thread is proving to me is why the decision on which devices may or may not make it is so hard. People love and rely on their UT phones no doubt each is as individual as it's owner. Which is why UT is so special. That is also why cutting loose any phone is hard choice. It's not just the phone it's the people too as Dalton has already said. The fact however remains that decsiosions will have to be made at some point in the very near future and some people will feel upset whichever way it goes. Almost a no win situation. Except by making it the project will continue and move forward, continuing to grow and develop as it does so. I'm sure that is something we all want.
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I think the main message for the survival of your individual device is to take action.
- Gather a group of people interested in savekeeping this device
- If you gather enough people and knowledge maybe your device team will be able to successfully port 20.04.
I think the foundation and core team will help as much as they can.
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As a reminder, UBports foundation is not a company. Driving a living community of beings is not as easy as leading a company.
We are no customer but members and contributors.A company answers to money and customer depending on how much they spend have an impact on it.
Loosing a member has a different impact on a community depending wether or not this member was contributing a lot or less...Acting like a company would mean stop listenning to members whose contribution is considered not important enough.
I think we can all agree it won't be a good thing.
So keep that in mind when pondering the decision made by those who contribute a lot, listens to others and try to satisfy the most people.I think everyone in the core team, the members of the foundation and major contributors are doing a fantastic job.
They explain what they do, why they do it. They try to federate people and ask for contributions because UBports depends on it. The people paid to work on Ubuntu Touch cannot maintain the OS and port it to devices by themselves.Money and talents are required, that's true, but UBports is not a company.
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L Lakotaubp referenced this topic on
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@moem said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
Please read what I wrote. Not all porting, but most of it. And that explains why the devs cannot guarantee what the porters will or won't do, and also why they cannot come up with a reliable list of devices that will definitely remain supported. They can only tell us what they, themselves, have planned.
So there are no guidelines for the community porters either ?!
Personally I have never bought a phone that was younger than three years. My current daily driver is from 2016. We're all different.
So how do you deal with worn out batteries ?!
@stanwood said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
I think the reality is much more complex than that.
Our core team collaborates mainly in open discussions so that everyone's work is as effective as possible.The functioning of UBports is not comparable to that of a traditional commercial company based on performance and profit.
But every team needs somekind of planning ahead I think ?!
How does the team take care of that part ?@lakotaubp said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
My newest phone for UT is a OP5 and that was over two years old when I got it. Before that it was a OP3 and a OP1. Have replaced the OP1 battery but all still work and I have another OP5 to do when I can. Looking good for this https://ubports.com/blog/ubports-news-1/post/ubuntu-touch-and-the-10-year-smartphone-3799
Where do you get your batteries from ??
@lakotaubp said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
That is also why cutting loose any phone is hard choice.
The fact however remains that decsiosions will have to be made at some point in the very near future and some people will feel upset whichever way it goes. Almost a no win situation. Except by making it the project will continue and move forward, continuing to grow and develop as it does so. I'm sure that is something we all want.Phones going EOL isn't a bad thing in some cases because you simply need certain features which only newer phones have...
And in some cases it's simply because they have become too slow for new software like most of the BQ phones by now have become...
@applee said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
I think the main message for the survival of your individual device is to take action.
- Gather a group of people interested in savekeeping this device
- If you gather enough people and knowledge maybe your device team will be able to successfully port 20.04.
I think the foundation and core team will help as much as they can.
But why waste all that time and talent on too slow and outdated devices ?!
As a reminder, UBports foundation is not a company. Driving a living community of beings is not as easy as leading a company.
We are no customer but members and contributors.A company answers to money and customer depending on how much they spend have an impact on it.
Loosing a member has a different impact on a community depending wether or not this member was contributing a lot or less...Acting like a company would mean stop listenning to members whose contribution is considered not important enough.
I think we can all agree it won't be a good thing.
So keep that in mind when pondering the decision made by those who contribute a lot, listens to others and try to satisfy the most people.
Money and talents are required, that's true, but UBports is not a company.I am not saying they should become a company but the impression I have so far is that certain things need better guidance/management/organization!
My phones :
- BQ Aquaris E5 HD Ubuntu Phone Edition - Ubuntu Touch 16.04 LTS
- ZUK Z2 Pro - ZUI Android 8.x
- Xiaomi Mi 9T - Jolla SailFish 3.4.x Community Build
P.S. : I am NOT a developer! ;)
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@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
So there are no guidelines for the community porters either ?!
I don't know, I'm not a porter. But it seems likely that there are.
I don't understand the 'So' here. For me, that does not follow at all. Also all the '?!' make you sound agitated or demanding. Just a hint!
So how do you deal with worn out batteries ?!
I don't know yet, it's still working. Is that so amazing? It's just six years old.
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@moem said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
I don't know, I'm not a porter. But it seems likely that there are.
So that's a NO then...
I don't understand the 'So' here. For me, that does not follow at all. Also all the '?!' make you sound agitated or demanding. Just a hint!
The ?! means I am surprised or shocked...
I don't know yet, it's still working. Is that so amazing? It's just six years old.
I think you are very lucky indeed!
Most batteries get a lot worse in about 3 years and are sometimes barely useable after 5 years!
Maybe you got used to it step by step over the years ??
Have you compared SoT's of your phone against when the phone was new ?My phones :
- BQ Aquaris E5 HD Ubuntu Phone Edition - Ubuntu Touch 16.04 LTS
- ZUK Z2 Pro - ZUI Android 8.x
- Xiaomi Mi 9T - Jolla SailFish 3.4.x Community Build
P.S. : I am NOT a developer! ;)
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@nero355 Batteries have been been an issue for me the couple of times I've got them. A well known market place has many and a bit of reading rules out most. The one for OPO was some generic with a few good write up the Nexus 5 was Polarcell from Germany IIRC. No great problem.
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@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
So there are no guidelines for the community porters either ?!
No, we cannot state that an individual should not work on a given project.
If one wants to port Ubuntu Touch 20.04 on a BQ4.5, they are welcome to try even if it probably won't bare fruit.So how do you deal with worn out batteries ?!
Sometime you don't have to
But every team needs somekind of planning ahead I think ?!
How does the team take care of that part ?Planning is based on open issues and priorities set internally.
But anyone can take upon themself to work on a non-priority issue if they want.
Right now the roadmap is clear : 20.04 because 16.04 is not supported anymore and there are security issues that will not be fixed.
The trade-off is that the fix should be back ported to 16.04 and this is a huge workload, so moving forward was decided.
Part of the core team still maintains 16.04, but no major work is done because it would be wasted if not easily transfered to 20.04Managing priorities is done and that's why you do not see some features like integrating UTTT to the system settings.
The feature is available for people to use. It's not ideal but it's there, VoLTE is a more pressing matter and impacts all users.Phones going EOL isn't a bad thing in some cases because you simply need certain features which only newer phones have...
Sometimes it is not as features dissapear in newer phones (e.g. Radio tuner)
And in some cases it's simply because they have become too slow for new software like most of the BQ phones by now have become...
Entering Ubuntu Touch that works fine on older devices depending on the user needs of course.
But for many the BQ 4.5 is still fast enough with Ubuntu Touch.But why waste all that time and talent on too slow and outdated devices ?!
Why do anything?
Don't limit people's freedom because you don't know what they can do with it...I am not saying they should become a company but the impression I have so far is that certain things need better guidance/management/organization!
I don't think you know what kind of management there is in the foundation.
And it seems that you also don't know how company are managed too. You seem to have a very simplified vision of how it works and how it should work.
I have a career in management and I heard this kind of speech from young employees. I showed them what a low level manager has to consider and told them that's just the tip of the iceberg.
They had no idea and I'm quite sure we have no idea what it is to manage a foundation like UBports with all the specificities of a community of volunteers... -
@nero355 said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
@moem said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
I don't know, I'm not a porter. But it seems likely that there are.
So that's a NO then...
No, it isn't. It's an "I don't know". Again, please read what I wrote and don't put words in my mouth.
The ?! means I am surprised or shocked...
Then it seems you are surprised or shocked most of the time.
Maybe you got used to it step by step over the years ??
No, that can't be it. I've not even had it for half a year.
Have you compared SoT's of your phone against when the phone was new ?
No. I don't really care; it is what it is, and if I don't consider it good enough I will either get a different battery or a different phone.
And now I will take a break from reading your messages and replying to you, because our personal styles aren't very compatible. My own battery needs a recharge, so to speak.
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Sorry, but I do not see the point for the discussion. We can share our ideas, but it seems that some posts are arguing against others.
I am not a teenager, lets say I am mid-age, but the BQ4.5 was my first smartphone!
I did not want to have an iPhone or an Android based one, nor a WindowsPhone. So when Canonical launched this phone I though it was the right time to buy one. I am not a tech-geek nor a developer but I like to go against the tide. I am also, alone at work, using an Ubuntu as desktop among all the MS machines.Surprisingly Canonical dropped its development and I felt disappointed. But thankfully UBPorts took it soon up again.
It has served me for 7 years. Some errors raised, some drawbacks, a reflash, etc. but in my opinion, it is a reason to dive into linux and something to enrich the experience. That is why I bought it.
Everything has an end and I understand that the involved people have their limits and also their desires. Why not? For instance, the may want to focus in newer devices to explore new capabilities. And that is marvellous.
As far as I am concerned, I will still use my BQE4.5 as my daily drive. I can make a phone call, send SMSs (sorry I am not a fan of social networks such as Whatsapp, Telegram, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc), I can send an email (Dekko2), I can navigate offline (PureMaps, UNav), I can read all kind documents (DocumentReader, SimpleReader, Seabass2), I can navigate (Morph), I can sync my calendar, I can take pictures and videos (they are not very good really), see them, I can even control my PC remotely (CuteVNC), and much more. Brian posted a list of the main downloaded apps in the General section of the forum and some are mentioned above.
It is not the most powerful device, nor the faster. But it really works. It has all the needed features, although it takes 3 s more to launch an app
Who cares for 3 s!I will not have updates. OK. I am sure that behind the curtains the improvements of each OTA are HUGE, but for common users as me, I suppose I will not lack them too much.
If the battery fails or, as it actually happens, the centre of the screen does not respond to my fingers, it is a hardware issue, not related to UBPorts or the software, but to the natural (programmed?) obsolescence. As I said, I like to go against the tide, so I keep using the phone even if I can not click on the number 5 of the telephone app. But then, there is UT Tweak Tool, to change to windows mode and move it to the working part of the screen. There is always a solution.
If any has keep reading until now, congratulations. What I may do to secure I keep using it, would be to download such apps that I may use in the future and keep a copy of the code (it is downloaded and stored in the phone: /opt/click.ubuntu.com). If ever I need one and it is not available in any repository I could still use it. Because even though they will not have the latest features, they work. I am grateful to all the developers that have done it possible.
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@applee said in Life with BQ4.5 after 20.04:
No, we cannot state that an individual should not work on a given project.
If one wants to port Ubuntu Touch 20.04 on a BQ4.5, they are welcome to try even if it probably won't bare fruit.Then why not give them at least some pointers in the right way ?!
Some kind of wishlist made by the Foundation/Core Team Developers ??
Sometime you don't have to
At some point you will have to unless you like hot batteries that can explode...
Managing priorities is done and that's why you do not see some features like integrating UTTT to the system settings.
But are there even plans to do so at this moment ??
VoLTE is a more pressing matter and impacts all users.
VoLTE and MMS issues it seems for both Ubuntu Touch and Jolla Sailfish so that's a good thing!
Sometimes it is not as features dissapear in newer phones (e.g. Radio tuner)
Not a core issue and easily replaceable so not a big deal IMHO
However when Core Features start to disappear like Modem/Data/WiFi/GPS/etc. then we would have a real issue!
Entering Ubuntu Touch that works fine on older devices depending on the user needs of course.
But for many the BQ 4.5 is still fast enough with Ubuntu Touch.It works but it's not exactly what you would call fast enough...
Why do anything?
Come on...
Don't limit people's freedom because you don't know what they can do with it...
That's not what I am saying!
I don't think you know what kind of management there is in the foundation.
TRUE!
Because there is no information available about it and there is no sign of such a thing actually existing at the moment...
And it seems that you also don't know how company are managed too. You seem to have a very simplified vision of how it works and how it should work.
I have a career in management and I heard this kind of speech from young employees. I showed them what a low level manager has to consider and told them that's just the tip of the iceberg.That's where you are wrong!
I have managed a big part of a company for many years and with success!
That's also the reason that I have all these questions : I see room for improvement!They had no idea and I'm quite sure we have no idea what it is to manage a foundation like UBports with all the specificities of a community of volunteers...
Again : Lack of information!
