I am about to give up and leave

kugiigi

@jojumaxx I'm not sure why you think the focus is lost. What made you think that? What do you think devs are focusing right now that you think isn't worth it?

The browser issue is a valid and indeed concerning one. But it's not an easy thing to solve. That's why there's an experiment with another web engine. But it's not simple to do quickly. I really hope we find a solution for this sooner than later. UT alralready relies on web on many things and many sites are starting to not work well.

Ubuntu Touch has a lot of technical debts and dealing with them needs tons of time and effort. But we are progressing on that front. We have wayland support now. Not perfect but it's there. We're now catching up to the latest Ubuntu LTS instead of being years behind. So it's a lot of progress. I understand your sentiment and it is totally fine to move on from UT. I'm just not sure I understand your reasoning since many of your issues has been there from the beginning.

I personally have an Android phone for all the things UT can't do or do well. I still use UT for most things though.

arubislander

@jojumaxx In addition to what @kugiigi has stated already, Waydroid is a completely separate project from Ubuntu Touch. So it's development does not impact resources available for this project.
The reason it seems it is an important part of the project is simply because a lot of users want what it offers. Waydroid is consistently in the top 5 search keywords on this forum. You and I may have no need for it, but there is clearly a need.

That's not to say your concerns are not valid, they very much are. And we thank you for voicing them. Unfortunately addressing your concerns is an ongoing process. And feature fixes and development is of the nature that not much can be shown or delivered until it is ready, however long that takes. So progress is difficult to show to the end user.

domubpkm

Waydroid is obviously a need for those who only have one UT smartphone, since UT smartphones only partially fulfill the basic needs of any smartphone user: the first two being a powerful browser, the second a powerful classic messaging. In my case and since I can afford it, two smartphones, one UT the other Volla OS are essential for everyday use.
And of course it is never a question of abandoning UT, but of doing the best with what we currently have!

jojumaxx

Thank you for your comments.

I feel my position is so hard to explain and whenever I try it feels like failure.

I am reading so much and try to gather information, yet I get the feeling I know nothing. I consider myself a normal user though I have a little programming background which helps me to understand some things or to help myself in some cases.
Ubuntu Touch targets "normal" people, right? So I don't know if I am about to reproach myself for the fact that I don't exactly know who develops what and who exactly is responsible for what.
Maybe I can gather a better overview somewhere?

My reality (the one of a normal user) is, that I have several phones running Ubuntu Touch. I was able to use them as my only daily driver. For a long time I didn't even have an Android phone.
But the eco system mostly has one app for one need. Over time, developers/maintainers dropped support for whatever reason.

E.g. me and most people I know communicate over Matrix servers. We got Cinny. Cinny starts failing more and more (e.g. emoticons and symbols are not usable any more). I read, the dev had to drop it due to health reasons. I wish him all the best. But that leaves me with the only alternative to use a web based client. That's not optimal due to notifications not coming up.

I was depending more and more on web apps and therefore on the browser, which is totally ok for me. The browser became the most important app to me - the browser, the only app keeping UT alive and usable (at least for me). If you are told then, that the browser's increasing failing on sites is not easily solved but we're not really doing something about it until 26.04., it's pretty annoying. Especially because I think one could have seen that coming. And I feel the solution is not to tell average users to use Waydroid.

What do you tell people who bought an expensive phone with the promise of an experience comparable to other OSes on the market, to explain this?
I counted on Volla phones, since they are new and come pre-installed and have a company as maintainer... But it's not an advantage. Compared to the Pixel 3a it's not worth it.

Another point concerning Volla is, that the UBPorts installer fails on 90% of attemps to flash a Volla Phone. I got all 4 Volla phones, all running UT by now, so in this case I know what I'm talking about.
That leaves me with expensive hardly usable phones, that will likely brick on the attempt to flash something else. I went through a lot concerning this.
I do not have too much money. Each time a new phone was released I was hoping, the UT is running better on it and I saved money to buy it. And I could distribute them in my family or even sell to colleages and convert more android users. But in that state, I can't convince them.

I spend so much money, time and effort in getting things to work, I just don't want that any more, because I am buying phones ready for end users, right? I shouldn't have to bother with half of the stuff not working. If I buy a Pinephone, they write there in red, that everything is in a beta state and might not be usable as daily driver.
The UBPorts website says more or less everything works fine. I think the Pine64 hint would be more suitable right now.
And even though I know, that Volla has most of the money for the phones I bought, I'd like to get what was promised and what I paid for and that's my point. In case of Pinephones, I knew before, what to expect and that's ok since these phones don't even cost half the price.

Then I listen to Q&As and so on and it all seems to be about things just not necessary to make the basic system just work.

So how does the future look? Will I have a working browser again?
Will I have a touch phone again? What about the other stuff? Maybe you should directly ask the community, what really is needed and concentrate on that. I can't imagine I'm the only one having these issues. And as I said, before I have to do 80% of my stuff within Waydroid, which sucks my battery empty in no time, I just use an Android phone.

I hope you get my point. And the questions, as a not too deep involved person are:

Why can't I just install apps like on any Linux system? Is that prevented by design or is that just not possible?
You know, the pinephone works better concerning this, but lacks hardware. Can't these two approaches just come together?
There's Mobian on the Pinephone. Ubuntu is based on Debian. Is Ubuntu Touch an own thing or still based on Debian?
Why don't I have the "freedom to break my device"? It feels like using and Android phone with the Termux App is the same linux experience at the surface for people like me.
If Volla sells a UT phone, what do the developers/maintainers of Volla do and what exactly does UBPorts? Where exactly is the deviding line? Who is doing what on such a port?
Why does the focus lie on convergence? As I said before, we have Libertine and Snaps, without any usage on a touch device. At least my devices get hot when trying to use them as a PC. So the question is just why? While the rest of the system needs caring so badly.

And here we close the loop since I'm back at the beginning. Who does develop what and why? and what's the future looking like?

If I could get back the money for the phones, I'd sell them immediatly. I'd just have a Pixel 3a and check by from time to time to see how things go. But since that is not going to happen and besides the fact that I was dumb enough to buy them, I just wonder what to do now (remember: flashing another OS fails on those phones in 3 of 4 times. I'm done with that) (keep an eye on ebay).

So what would be your advice for someone like me who bought phone after phone believing it's getting better on the next one? As a non involved person, should I have seen that coming? How could I have known that? Or could I and I was too blind? Too dumb? In my opinion here's clearly a lack of communication and information - for avaerage users at least, you're aiming at.

I wish I could help by getting into app development, but the apps I need are not currency converters... To be able to do something about the really important apps I would need way more knowledge, time and experience.

I am the first to contribute again with money, if I get a working touch device again...

Thanks for reading until yout got until here!!!

AppLee

Hi,

Thank you for raising your personal issues with the project.
First of all, I can assure you that many people share your concern and few are actively trying to change things for the better.

I guess there is an image/perception issue and I would like to try an address this.
Can I ask you to refer to this post for the next Q&A so I don't forget about it and try to give as much information as possible.

arubislander

@jojumaxx I am truly sorry to hear about your experience and troubles. There is a lot you mention and a lot to unpack. I will not be able to address all your concerns, but I would like to address a few, and start by sharing my own experience and expectations of the OS for context.

I have used UT from the time it was launched by Canonical. However, it has never been my only device. Anbox and then Waydroid were never good solutions for me. So I have always had an Android phone on the side for WhatsApp, banking apps and various apps I need for work.

I follow along fairly closely with the development of the OS, (I even contributed a few tiny patches and wrote a few apps for my own need, and published them in the OpenStore), but I don't follow the marketing very closely. So I am not very current on what all is being claimed as capabilities for the OS.

When the partnership with Volla was announced I did not expect UT to have more working features on a Volla phone than on, say, a Pixel 3a. The advantages of a Volla Phone might be pre-installed UT on more capable hardware and company backed customer service. But what features do or don't work, like VoLTE or an ageing browser, have nothing to do with if the phone came with th OS pre-installed or not.

Yes, UT is targeted for the 'normal' user. But the project isn't just there yet. The goal is to be usable for the average user, but the reality is that there might still be some challenges. Fixing these takes time. To me these challenges are well known. But I understand they might not be very apparent up front for a new user. If this is the case, we need to do better at setting expectations.

Yes, there will be a workable browser in the future. Right now Morph depends on components in the base Ubuntu system. These are outdated in 20.04. Keeping the base system up to date is the reason moving to 24.04 (not 26.04) is a high priority at the moment. This in itself will not make the browser components Morph depends on more up to date, because 24.04 still is not on the latest version on Qt. But it might make it possible to back port some, or all, of the necessary components.

In the meantime Alfred's Mimi browser based on WebKit might see an alpha release soon. Since this browser does not depend on base components in Ubuntu, it will be possible to update it more frequently and independently from the base system.

To your question, where to find all this info as a normal user. There are the newsletters, blog posts, Q&A's, this forum, the various telegram channels and GitLab. The last two might be difficult to parse though. Maybe we need a (bi-)weekly podcast that brings people up to speed with the goings on.

Timespansoul

I think it's time to change your signature to "unhappily using UT" (haha).

I've been daily driving UT for about two months. I could complain about the short comings of UT. I could complain how I have to restart my phone to grab some MMS messages, or how the wifi icon just disappears sometimes but wifi button doesn't, requiring a restart. I could complain about the limited sound customization, I could complain about battery life leaving something to be desired and a camera that isn't working at its full potential and indeed a device that isn't being pushed to its full potential. I could complain how sometimes when I try to restart the screen flickers and then I have to hard restart to restart.

Then I remind myself I could still be dealing with iOS and getting messages that my cloud storage is almost full. I could still be dealing with companies and devices that DON'T ALLOW ME TO CHOOSE WHAT IS ON MY DEVICE or how I should use it OR WHAT PASSWORD I WANT TO USE! I could fill pages. And one also has to focus on the major strides that UT has made. It really has come such a long way since its inception.

There is one thing that Ubuntu Touch offers and it's the freedom to choose just as advertised.

Yes, it's far from perfect but you have to evaluate why someone would want to use UT. Some people, like me, will sacrifice almost everything at this point for the freedom that UT offers. Since I've been running UT I've never felt so free from the corporate cesspool that everyone seems to call life these days. It's literally been an invigorating experience. My mind has more space in it for more important things in life, like helping to make UT better!

Users have to keep in mind that we are limited to the vendors blobs. What would be amazing is a cheap open source device where all hardware is open source, where the drivers are well understood. Or some modular device that one could customize with whatever camera, nic, soc, etc.. they want to put in it, and drop halium all together. And then you have the carriers ripping down their own networks creating unreasonable deadlines forcing priorities onto developers. This is an uphill battle and sometimes it's a 3' brick wall with a 12" titanium plate behind it. The vendor blobs are causing a serious bottle neck in development.

Also we are a community of what... 10000? If that? I'm just guessing. This is something that isn't properly appreciated or taken into account.

Seriously take a moment to appreciate about how small that number is compared to the juggernauts. This alone should create an enlightening perspective on things.

With everything as messy as it is UT come so far and by so few. It really is something to be proud of and it feels great to be part of a community that pours its blood and sweat into giving people the "choice" and without compensation other then the satisfaction they get knowing that they are creating a choice where choice is needed. The people doing this actually care about your freedom, this cannot be measured in my eyes. Even users who don't know anything about anything still help make it better by getting involved and asking questions. By asking questions on the front-end improvements are made on the back-end. Although Telegram is suspect and I wonder why it's used but that is a whole other topic and I won't digress.

It's like being in a horse race and we've chosen a pony. Now a lot of people are betting on this pony to win the race. Some will even be disappointed when they realize half way through the race that the pony isn't going to win, that to their dismay the pony isn't performing as a horse jacked up on the best 'roids would. The expectation sounds unreasonable right? Now some of us bet on the pony because we know the pony doesn't even want to be part of the race and that it will most likely leave the track and graze the field.

In my opinion, it really comes down to philosophy; a way of life. What do we want out of life? With UT in my life I have more time to enjoy life.

Mario.CH

Hi @jojumaxx,

Thank you for having the courage to talk about things (convergence), but until now I thought that the core developers were already working on all the urgent things and only talked about what they found interesting in their Q&A shows. But what always bothered me (maybe like you) was that they don't always communicate honestly what and how much they are working on, or maybe nobody really has an overview.

For me, the rescue from the impending exit came with the porting of the Oneplus Nord N100.
I was able to buy an unused device (‘brand new’) for just CHF 120, and now I have a smartphone that can make calls and data traffic (UMTS/3G & LTE/4G => without VoLTE), make hands-free calls (Bluetooth) in the car, and SMS (unfortunately MMS has been dropped in Switzerland), take photos and listen to music. What else I will try out is: Chatapp Delta chat, navigation app and other things.

The chat is not important for me, however, as I can make phone calls, because I am one of those older people who have never realised why people nowadays ‘text’ instead of making phone calls (breaking records in terms of speed on such a stupid thing as a touchscreen) or, even worse, send audio messages.

So my horse is not dead yet.

Greetings Mario

Mario.CH

Hi @arubislander,

@arubislander said in I am about to give up and leave:

When the partnership with Volla was announced I did not expect UT to have more working features on a Volla phone than on, say, a Pixel 3a. The advantages of a Volla Phone might be pre-installed UT on more capable hardware and company backed customer service. But what features do or don't work, like VoLTE or an ageing browser, have nothing to do with if the phone came with th OS pre-installed or not.

Unfortunately, I have to raise an objection here. I believe that many people here in the forum see things a little differently. Because it has been stated many times that many problems are due to the fact that we don't know how the hardware drivers are written. I must admit I'm too lazy to search the forum at the moment to provide evidence.

Ergo, it is only logical for a user who has no technical or IT knowledge to hope that things will get better when Ubports co-operates with Volla.

Greetings Mario

moodroid

You've mentioned the Pinephone a few times. I have one also. But the thing that stops me daily driving it, is not that it's underpowered, but that sooner or later I'll miss a text or a call. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong), there isn't a single pure Linux phone where texts and calls are totally reliable.

So that only leaves us with UT, Droidian/FuriOS and Sailfish. They're all good, and all work reliably for phone usage. I did daily drive Droidian (sorry) on my Pixel 3a for about 6 months, but I ended coming back to UT, as the ability to use and scale any Linux app isn't all it's cracked up to be, and UT has some really cool native apps!

Ultimately, UT does everything I need, and most importantly, I can depend on texts and calls working (I don't use social media). As for browsers, I can't see why more people don't use Firefox via Libertine. It seemed like everybody wanted it when it didn't work, and now it does work, nobody wants it! And it's far from being the only Linux app that works in Libertine.

arubislander

Hi @Mario-CH,

@Mario-CH said in I am about to give up and leave:

Unfortunately, I have to raise an objection here.

There is nothing unfortunate about that. . There is ample room for different views and opinions.

@Mario-CH said in I am about to give up and leave:

it is only logical for a user who has no technical or IT knowledge to hope that things will get better when Ubports co-operates with Volla.

That is indeed logical, assuming Volla were the ones writing the drivers in the first place, or at the very least have access to their source code, and sharing the knowledge about those with the devs they contracted to work on UT for them. I am not sure that the devs have access to this information, if it is at all available.

Nevertheless, knowledge of the drivers would only help with getting all the hardware on the phone, like camera, fingerprint reader, touch screen, and such, to work. But these already mostly work if there is a corresponding Halium version. Issues, such as the age of the the browser components, are at a different level of the OS. They are independent of any hardware compatibility.

It seems like communication on these things is not reaching the non-technical users in a way that they can understand, even though the information is out there. At present the best I can do is encourage everyone to follow as much as possible the communication channels I mentioned in ny previous message.

tuXut

@jojumaxx
have been with me since the BQ Aquaris 4.5. Always used UT. Don't need many apps, e-mail, browser, Telegram and offline navigation. I also have the feeling that everything is getting more and more difficult. (I follow the progress on a Volla-X ) I bought an FP5 with /e/os this year. Everything I need works. ( I don't like /e/os as much as UT, maybe UT will be really good on the FP5 one day )

kingu

When your friends look at phones you think are expensive, that is their choice.
You understand you are not a good user, but you want justification
for every scenario you can come up with.
The model is working just fine, the approach is sound, and the OS progresses in directions people want it to.

You have no plan. You parted with your money.
Where are you happy in any scenario?

Your friends can buy cheap devices with UBPorts on it?

That is what the market does.
Price goes down, the amount of players go up, and the OS improves over time.

There are a lot of things to do about the OS.

jojumaxx

@AppLee I'll do so trying to be more factual. Thank you

jojumaxx

@moodroid Yes, Firefox works in Libertine, but for me it'hardly usable. It scales, but not completely (also settings windows, menus, etc. are hardly usable) and touches are registered slightly on different positions which is enough to hardly tap on the things you want.
Therefore it's not usable to me. Otherwise this would have been the alternative I was looking for...
I tried other apps, but none of those I need would scale or work...

jojumaxx

@Timespansoul I am completely with you. When I was writing my post I did it while being angry, disappointed and clueless somehow.

If I offended someone, I really and honestly apologize. I didn't mean to lower the value of the work everybody puts in.

Ubtuntu Touch is a great project and I'm grateful it exists. Otherwise I wouldn't have been here for so long.

But nevertheless, basics need to work to use it. If a car has a broken engine, this should be addressed since driving is its main purpose and not e.g. the improvement of the entertainment system...
Keep in mind, this is subjective to me and that I don't know what the core developers are responsible for and for what others. I don't want to do someone wrong!

jojumaxx

@kingu Look, if you sell something on the market, which at least Volla does, you have a responsibility for your customers.
I don't really see that when I look at 4 phones hardly usable nor flashable.
Looking at what the Gigaset "originals" cost or compared to a Pinephone, yes they are expensive and in my case, taking the original bills about 1700€ of phones I can't really use.

Is it wrong, questioning this?

Why do I have no plan? If you need to have a plan, this should be outlined, don't you think?

And what exactly makes me a bad user? If special skills are necessary, this should be outlined, too.

That's exactly, what this is about.

Search the net, there are enough reviews of normal people (bad users?) who tried. If everything was working, maybe the market share would be higher (or maybe they just have no plan).

Keneda

@kingu said in I am about to give up and leave:

You understand you are not a good user

That's what you "understand", and you're wrong.

Someone using UT for almost 10 years as daily driver would not do a thread like that without being disappointed.
Some decisions, like making morph the only webrowser, and part of the system and in consequence not updatable independently, could not end anything different that the situation we encounter now.
This is a very important thing on a smartphone, being able to browse the web.

And his "grief" on Volla can be heard, they sell the only smartphones preinstalled with UT on it, which make them the first choice for "noobs" that fear flashing devices, and those devices are not 100% working, even the very first one, under UT.
Maybe Volla should focus on that and not on doing things like dual boot (keeping it for themselves... viva open source..), and selling new devices like Quintus, when the older ones are still not 100% fonctionnal.

arubislander

@Keneda said in I am about to give up and leave:

Maybe Volla should focus on that and not on doing things like dual boot (keeping it for themselves... viva open source..), and selling new devices like Quintus, when the older ones are still not 100% fonctionnal.

This is an important point, that is often overlooked. Once Volla as a company commits to shipping UT on their devices, they also have some responsibility to their customers for ensuring a usable experience.

None of the regressions are their fault, of course. But that does not mean they have no means to influence their remediation. For instance, they could sponsor or contract work on the new browser. Although to be fair they do already have some people working on UT, which just goes to show that these things are not trivial.

All of the above notwithstanding, if a Volla customer is disappointed with their device the best place to voice their dissatisfaction is to Volla.

domubpkm

@Keneda said in I am about to give up and leave:

This is a very important thing on a smartphone, being able to browse the web

It is !! I would even say that if we can no longer do this normally, we can no longer call it a smartphone !