jojumaxx

jojumaxx

I am using UT for over 10 years now. I use it because I do NOT want to use Android.
While the base systems functioning are neglected, focus lies on Waydroid and things.

Since I can hardly use a Browser, Mail Client, Chat Client, etc. on UT itself I can use everything on Waydroid.
But if things only work on Waydroid I can use an Android Phone without that battery drainage...

There's Libertine and Snap support which don't help with the mobile experience. If I want to have a tablet or laptop, I use a tablet or laptop.
Convergence is good as a bonus, if the basis works. It's called Ubuntu Touch, but touchable is nothing. Don't forget, that this is about phones.

I think focus got lost. I hope you don't get mad at me for this. Hope you can see it at least a bit from my perspective.

E.g. I am sorry, telling me, that a really working browser can be expected with 26.04. is not enough, for nobody.
Neither is the information a "Interim" browser is coming, but no information when or what it is capable of.
I was accused of nagging when I tried to talk about this. Ok, here is still one point that justifies it:

You can develop this in any direction you want, but then don't sell it as something it is not and make people buy expensive devices they can't use.

I asked people to hypothetically switch from Android/IOS to UT and choose a device. They got on your website and mostly chose devices you can buy with UT preinstalled, means expensive.
The website says, the experience is comparable to other OSes on the market.
I then gave them my devices to try. Though I told them not to expect a replacement for Android/IOS, most of them would just feel scammed, since the phones are unusable without Waydroid. But as I said, then you don't need UT but and Android phone.

Efforts should IMO go into development of things the community needs to have a usable device without Android support and these are basic apps.

I contributed. But I don't wanna do that if development goes into a wrong direction. Why do the few resources you have and emphasise develop things the community does not really need instead of a useful base system and necessary features and apps?

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the hard work to bring the system up to 20.04 and 24.04. I do and I know it is an insane amount of work. But what to do with it if I can hardly use it as daily driver?

It's because efforts go into features developers believe are cool. Nothing wrong about that, but then you should stay in this bubble of enthusiasts and don't make people from outside who want to escape Android, buy expensive devices that are hardly usable by suggesting wrong facts.

I got more than one Pinephone, which work better out of the box since I can install any app I want from the OSes sources or even flatpaks. And they mostly do scale! No need for Android or Waydroid though even that is possible. But it's not necessary and that's the difference.

Now, with Droidian, there's a good part of the same hardware available. I flashed it onto my Pixel 3a XL. Works. No Waydroid nessecary.

Oh yeah, banking apps. I you feel the need to trust any phone with banking, you need Android/Waydroid. But is that the most important thing to get running?

So please give me a reason not to leave UT which I still love and would prefer but can hardly use?
And please justify for the people who are not willing or able to start flashing phones and paid a lot of money for bad working phones, why you promote them and advertise them...

Please don't be mad at me. I spent so much patience, money, efforts... I just want a working phone by now and that was but isn't UT any more...

I am just a Linux user, but UT is the only system I encountered yet, that doesn't allow me to use a package manager freely. Everything would be perfect if that was possible...at least I guess so...

Nevertheless, thanks for everything...

jojumaxx

@AppLee I get all that and I am aware.
I am on board as a user since UT started. I always had patience and understanding and supported people if possible.

For the following I want tosay first, that I have no insights and mught not be aware of certain things.

I refer to as what UBorts presents itself on the web. An alternative OS for anybody.
I am sure I am not the only one who read stories of people trying UT for some time and then switching back to their former OS since they were disappointed.
Mostly this is, because they simply have no clue of what they hold in their hands.
But the people I know using Android or IOS I couldn't convince even one to switch to UT though for me it's the best.

On the device site I read "Runs very smoothly without any flaws. The experience on this device will be comparable to other mobile OSes on the market."

That's simply not true for an average user which UBPorts want to reach. Or amI getting this wrong?

Also my impression is, that the focus of developers often is on things important to them, not the community. There are often things in Q&As I thought about "nice" but doesn't bring the user experience for the average user forward, since he doesn't even get in touch with it.

I hope you get my point.

So maybe UBPorts should name it an OS for people who are willing to renounce and wait if something doesn't work.
But that is not a ready OS comparable to others on the market. You can't expect people to jump on the train if the train doesn't roll (browser, mail,...). In my opinion some priorities over the last years were not set right.

Please please don't get me wrong. I just want to clarify this for me and once and for all. I don't want bad blood.
I consider myself as an average user UBPorts want to gather more of.
I also don't have time to read and inform me about everything and other average users may behave similar. Therefore I might have gotten things wrong...?
So I wonder if UT is for me or just for really skilled people.

This not meant to disrespect the work of the developers. The opposite is the case, I wish I was that skilled! It's just about the direction and decisions I know too little about!

I'd love to help. I have basic coding skills, but I simply have no time. So I report experiences as a normal user with needs, developers maybe don't always see. I buy devices of Volla who help developing and donate to UBPorts.
That's what I can do.

I tried e.g. Volla OS and other degoogled OSes. I avoid apps wherever possible and do things in the browser. I don't really like Android. But basic stuff works on all those OSes, even on Mobian or postmarketOS on the Pinephone (which simply lags hardware). I know, one could write books now on why that is so.

My point is: If UT is praised as working OS for average people, then it should be that. In my opinion, it was, but isn't any more though it could.
It should state, what andfor who it really is.
If that disqualifies me as a welcome user, I accept that I am wrong and won't bother anyone here any more...

I really hope, I expressed myself right. I want to stay part of this and I was simply asking for a solution until a new browser is coming.
I am willing to wait but can't get along without a browser. So what am I supposed to do? This is my question...

jojumaxx

Thank you for your comments.

I feel my position is so hard to explain and whenever I try it feels like failure.

I am reading so much and try to gather information, yet I get the feeling I know nothing. I consider myself a normal user though I have a little programming background which helps me to understand some things or to help myself in some cases.
Ubuntu Touch targets "normal" people, right? So I don't know if I am about to reproach myself for the fact that I don't exactly know who develops what and who exactly is responsible for what.
Maybe I can gather a better overview somewhere?

My reality (the one of a normal user) is, that I have several phones running Ubuntu Touch. I was able to use them as my only daily driver. For a long time I didn't even have an Android phone.
But the eco system mostly has one app for one need. Over time, developers/maintainers dropped support for whatever reason.

E.g. me and most people I know communicate over Matrix servers. We got Cinny. Cinny starts failing more and more (e.g. emoticons and symbols are not usable any more). I read, the dev had to drop it due to health reasons. I wish him all the best. But that leaves me with the only alternative to use a web based client. That's not optimal due to notifications not coming up.

I was depending more and more on web apps and therefore on the browser, which is totally ok for me. The browser became the most important app to me - the browser, the only app keeping UT alive and usable (at least for me). If you are told then, that the browser's increasing failing on sites is not easily solved but we're not really doing something about it until 26.04., it's pretty annoying. Especially because I think one could have seen that coming. And I feel the solution is not to tell average users to use Waydroid.

What do you tell people who bought an expensive phone with the promise of an experience comparable to other OSes on the market, to explain this?
I counted on Volla phones, since they are new and come pre-installed and have a company as maintainer... But it's not an advantage. Compared to the Pixel 3a it's not worth it.

Another point concerning Volla is, that the UBPorts installer fails on 90% of attemps to flash a Volla Phone. I got all 4 Volla phones, all running UT by now, so in this case I know what I'm talking about.
That leaves me with expensive hardly usable phones, that will likely brick on the attempt to flash something else. I went through a lot concerning this.
I do not have too much money. Each time a new phone was released I was hoping, the UT is running better on it and I saved money to buy it. And I could distribute them in my family or even sell to colleages and convert more android users. But in that state, I can't convince them.

I spend so much money, time and effort in getting things to work, I just don't want that any more, because I am buying phones ready for end users, right? I shouldn't have to bother with half of the stuff not working. If I buy a Pinephone, they write there in red, that everything is in a beta state and might not be usable as daily driver.
The UBPorts website says more or less everything works fine. I think the Pine64 hint would be more suitable right now.
And even though I know, that Volla has most of the money for the phones I bought, I'd like to get what was promised and what I paid for and that's my point. In case of Pinephones, I knew before, what to expect and that's ok since these phones don't even cost half the price.

Then I listen to Q&As and so on and it all seems to be about things just not necessary to make the basic system just work.

So how does the future look? Will I have a working browser again?
Will I have a touch phone again? What about the other stuff? Maybe you should directly ask the community, what really is needed and concentrate on that. I can't imagine I'm the only one having these issues. And as I said, before I have to do 80% of my stuff within Waydroid, which sucks my battery empty in no time, I just use an Android phone.

I hope you get my point. And the questions, as a not too deep involved person are:

Why can't I just install apps like on any Linux system? Is that prevented by design or is that just not possible?
You know, the pinephone works better concerning this, but lacks hardware. Can't these two approaches just come together?
There's Mobian on the Pinephone. Ubuntu is based on Debian. Is Ubuntu Touch an own thing or still based on Debian?
Why don't I have the "freedom to break my device"? It feels like using and Android phone with the Termux App is the same linux experience at the surface for people like me.
If Volla sells a UT phone, what do the developers/maintainers of Volla do and what exactly does UBPorts? Where exactly is the deviding line? Who is doing what on such a port?
Why does the focus lie on convergence? As I said before, we have Libertine and Snaps, without any usage on a touch device. At least my devices get hot when trying to use them as a PC. So the question is just why? While the rest of the system needs caring so badly.

And here we close the loop since I'm back at the beginning. Who does develop what and why? and what's the future looking like?

If I could get back the money for the phones, I'd sell them immediatly. I'd just have a Pixel 3a and check by from time to time to see how things go. But since that is not going to happen and besides the fact that I was dumb enough to buy them, I just wonder what to do now (remember: flashing another OS fails on those phones in 3 of 4 times. I'm done with that) (keep an eye on ebay).

So what would be your advice for someone like me who bought phone after phone believing it's getting better on the next one? As a non involved person, should I have seen that coming? How could I have known that? Or could I and I was too blind? Too dumb? In my opinion here's clearly a lack of communication and information - for avaerage users at least, you're aiming at.

I wish I could help by getting into app development, but the apps I need are not currency converters... To be able to do something about the really important apps I would need way more knowledge, time and experience.

I am the first to contribute again with money, if I get a working touch device again...

Thanks for reading until yout got until here!!!

jojumaxx

As a last step I tried switching channels now which also did not lead to success.

And as a very last step I did a factory reset after which the app worked again.
I don't know which data were responsible at the end, but all actions spared it. Only deleting ALL user data helped. Maybe someone else has a clue.

Though I have to set up everything again, I'm happy the music app is back. I'll cautiously set up Waydroid this time and check after every step if the Mmusic app still works. Maybe I'll be able to identify at least the action causing this issue.

I'll mark this as solved for now.

jojumaxx

It seems, there are not many Quintus running Ubuntu Touch out there and since I have been asked about working features I thought I'd make an entry here for those who are interested.
Since there's no Quintus sub section, yet I write it here until it can be moved to its according place.

I took this list from the Ubuntu Touch device page.
I don't have the device for a very long time, so I will update things marked "untestet" ().
These are my personal observations on stable channel.

Actors:
Manual brightness
Torchlight
Vibration

Camera:
Flashlight
Photo
Video
Switching between cameras

Cellular:
Carrier info, signal strength
Data connection
Incoming, outgoing calls
MMS in, out
PIN unlock
SMS in, out
Change audio routings
Voice in calls
Volume control in calls

Endurance:
24+ hours battery lifetime
7+ days stability

GPU:
Boot into UI
Hardware video playback

Misc:
AppArmor patches
Battery percentage
Offline charging
Online charging
Recovery image
Reset to factory defaults
RTC time
Shutdown / Reboot (see bottom)
Wireless External monitor
Waydroid

Network:
Bluetooth
Flight mode
Hotspot
NFC
WiFi

Sensors:
Automatic brightness
Fingerprint reader
GPS
Proximity
Rotation
Touchscreen
Double touch to wake

Sound:
Earphones (see bottom)
Loudspeaker
Microphone
Volume control (see bottom)

USB:
MTP access
ADB access

Reboot not always working. The screen turns off but it doesn't come back again. Hard reboot is necessary.

Bluetooth earphones work. The USB-C to 3.5mm adapter that came with the phone works, too. Another one I tested does not work. So this depends on hardware.

When listening to Music in the Music App, sometimes sound goes completely down on switching tracks. Same happens occasionally when switching position in the video app.

In some cases, but especially after the container has been frozen, Waydroid does not start again after having been closed/stopped. The only workaround working for me is running

systemctl restart waydroid-container

in the terminal (sometimes twice). Then Waydroid will start again.

jojumaxx

I purchased a Volla Phone on Indiegogo. Looking forward to delivery

jojumaxx

Got it. Forgot to secure that domain, so the URL started with http instead of https which I always typed. Secured it and now it works.
Sorry I bothered you!

jojumaxx

I get the feeling this going in a wrong direction.

I DO NOT criticize the state of Ubuntu Touch. I criticize HOW IT IS SOLD!

I studied computational linguistics and developed e.g. natural language processing models etc. Due to personal reasons I couldn't continue doing so. I say this to make clear, I have an understanding of how much work this is.

This said: Dear developers, I DO NOT criticize your work. I know this is often painful and hard and I highly appreciate it.

The only thing to be addressed here is preferences, but that's another thing.

I DO criticise, how the smartphones are sold and I'm talking about those who can be bought new with UT preinstalled.

Now the following scenario:
A random person (using Ubuntu on their PC at home) is looking for a new phone. Maybe something de-googled this time. The person finds out about Volla Quintus. Then the person finds out "hey, I could order it with UT preinstalled" and does so.

Go to the website. They state, that if you do use Linux, the phone is for you because everything will be familiar.
They say, that all basics work.

Now the phone arrives and half of the stuff doesn't work. Now anger and frustration begin, not to mention the money that thing costs.

If there was a real warning, like in the Pinephone Shop, you either don't buy or you know what you're dealing with.

THIS is my point!

So the UBPorts devices site changed a bit. It doesn't claim any more, that the experience is comparable to other OSes on the marked.

When I bought my original Volla Phone, that was true and it was my daily driver for a long time.
I bought the next promoted one, because I thought they wouldn't put it on the marked without improvements, but the experience was worse. And I felt scammed because these devices nevertheless cost a lot if money. And they put phone after phone on the market of which none really works.

So this is about Volla, too.

From now on, like Pinephone, I look at Ubuntu Touch like an enthusiast project.
I do not expect functioning devices when I order them. And potential buyers should be clearly warned.

I still believe in UT and love it. And I hope we will get to the point of working daily drivers again.

I wish I could contribute in cases of development, but due to personal reasons, I simply can't

So again, I DO NOT criticize developers or UT itself but how it is presented to potential buyers namely as working alternative which right now it is not.

This might cause people to loose money they maybe don't have in the believe they buy a working "Linux" phone.

Thanks for reading!

jojumaxx

@arubislander Thank you. I learned a lot in this thread and understand things better now.

I want to thank everybody for their patience and the hard work. This helps to appreciate it even more.

jojumaxx

Please correct me, if I am wrong:

Compared to any Android based phone, the Pinephone offers most privacy due to most hardware operating with open source software and the hardware switches.

As an OS, focussing on privacy, shouldn't be the pinephone the first device to put effort in?
Additionally, isn't development on the pinephone easier?
Development should be much more efficient since there's no messing around with Android compatibility layers, proprietary hardware pieces, etc.

So why is the most suitable device hardly maintained? Why wasting so much time and effort in adapting Android phones which develop so fast, UT developers hardly can keep up with?
If I get it right, after all the time, the Pixel 3a is the only device not lacking features. There are so many incomplete builds and despite that, new phones get added to the list instead of completing those which are there already.
If someone would ask me, which device to buy, honestly I don't know. The Pixel 3a is complete, but old. The others are incomplete. Even the preinstalled Volla Phone is not 100% ready and therefore way too expensive.

Why not make the pinephone (pro) a really great UT device?
Why not concentrate powers on one device which can be most easily maintained and make it THE UT phone?

I don't get it. Am I wrong with what I said?
Please help me understand that...

Thanks!

jojumaxx

It seems, there are not many Quintus running Ubuntu Touch out there and since I have been asked about working features I thought I'd make an entry here for those who are interested.
Since there's no Quintus sub section, yet I write it here until it can be moved to its according place.

I took this list from the Ubuntu Touch device page.
I don't have the device for a very long time, so I will update things marked "untestet" ().
These are my personal observations on stable channel.

Actors:
Manual brightness
Torchlight
Vibration

Camera:
Flashlight
Photo
Video
Switching between cameras

Cellular:
Carrier info, signal strength
Data connection
Incoming, outgoing calls
MMS in, out
PIN unlock
SMS in, out
Change audio routings
Voice in calls
Volume control in calls

Endurance:
24+ hours battery lifetime
7+ days stability

GPU:
Boot into UI
Hardware video playback

Misc:
AppArmor patches
Battery percentage
Offline charging
Online charging
Recovery image
Reset to factory defaults
RTC time
Shutdown / Reboot (see bottom)
Wireless External monitor
Waydroid

Network:
Bluetooth
Flight mode
Hotspot
NFC
WiFi

Sensors:
Automatic brightness
Fingerprint reader
GPS
Proximity
Rotation
Touchscreen
Double touch to wake

Sound:
Earphones (see bottom)
Loudspeaker
Microphone
Volume control (see bottom)

USB:
MTP access
ADB access

Reboot not always working. The screen turns off but it doesn't come back again. Hard reboot is necessary.

Bluetooth earphones work. The USB-C to 3.5mm adapter that came with the phone works, too. Another one I tested does not work. So this depends on hardware.

When listening to Music in the Music App, sometimes sound goes completely down on switching tracks. Same happens occasionally when switching position in the video app.

In some cases, but especially after the container has been frozen, Waydroid does not start again after having been closed/stopped. The only workaround working for me is running

systemctl restart waydroid-container

in the terminal (sometimes twice). Then Waydroid will start again.

jojumaxx

Solved with OTA-7 / current Waydroid version

jojumaxx

Re: Show/Hide apps doesn't work since OTA-5

I also do have the problem that all Waydroid apps appear in the launcher and can't be removed.

So I checked what the Waydroid Helper does to hide them to see if there's something wrong like a path to the files or something like that.
But the path is correct and what the helper does is simply setting the NoDisplay flag in the .desktop file to true or false.
This mechanism works, the flag is set to true or false just as selected.

So my conclusion is, that the launcher seems to ignore this setting and it therefore is not an issue of the Waydroid Helper.

I am on a Volla Phone 22 with OTA-6 (OTA-5 also had this issue)

Other Volla models do not seem to have this issue, it seems to be related to the Volla 22.

Maybe someone has a clue.

Removing or renaming the .desktop files caused issues and does not seem to be a solution.

jojumaxx

@tuXut Thanks.
I once suggested, that the Pinephone (Pro) would have been a good start, since it's "open" hardware.

In my understanding most time is lost in running after the Android Compatibility Layer (Halium).
How much development could go into functionality, usability and features on the Pinephone?

Instead there is (AFAIK) one developer keeping UT on the Pinephone alive. I shortly revived my PP UT CE and want to leave that developer a big "THANK YOU - good job, keep it up" here.

That's sad. And again my question (no one answered yet): Why not the Pinephone? Why running after Android development which seems to go too quick to keep up?
The PPP could be THE UT device and compared to what we have now surely wouldn't be bad...

jojumaxx