I am about to give up and leave

[Keneda]

@kingu said in I am about to give up and leave:

You understand you are not a good user

That's what you "understand", and you're wrong.

Someone using UT for almost 10 years as daily driver would not do a thread like that without being disappointed.
Some decisions, like making morph the only webrowser, and part of the system and in consequence not updatable independently, could not end anything different that the situation we encounter now.
This is a very important thing on a smartphone, being able to browse the web.

And his "grief" on Volla can be heard, they sell the only smartphones preinstalled with UT on it, which make them the first choice for "noobs" that fear flashing devices, and those devices are not 100% working, even the very first one, under UT.
Maybe Volla should focus on that and not on doing things like dual boot (keeping it for themselves... viva open source..), and selling new devices like Quintus, when the older ones are still not 100% fonctionnal.

[arubislander]

@Keneda said in I am about to give up and leave:

Maybe Volla should focus on that and not on doing things like dual boot (keeping it for themselves... viva open source..), and selling new devices like Quintus, when the older ones are still not 100% fonctionnal.

This is an important point, that is often overlooked. Once Volla as a company commits to shipping UT on their devices, they also have some responsibility to their customers for ensuring a usable experience.

None of the regressions are their fault, of course. But that does not mean they have no means to influence their remediation. For instance, they could sponsor or contract work on the new browser. Although to be fair they do already have some people working on UT, which just goes to show that these things are not trivial.

All of the above notwithstanding, if a Volla customer is disappointed with their device the best place to voice their dissatisfaction is to Volla.

[domubpkm]

@Keneda said in I am about to give up and leave:

This is a very important thing on a smartphone, being able to browse the web

It is !! I would even say that if we can no longer do this normally, we can no longer call it a smartphone !

[Timespansoul]

@jojumaxx I do agree that Volla and Pinephone in particular have an obligation to their customers and are a special case. I would expect a device that has something preinstalled from the manufacturer to work flawlessly, and if it didn't I would be very disappointed. If I spent 1700 euros on devices that didn't perform as advertised I would be very upset, and I would write a letter explaining how upset I was, to *Volla or *Phinephone.

I know little about these devices as in my mind, what they offered me was simply too expensive for me and they didn't offer much more than a ported Pixel with some porting time put into it. Buying these phones was also a gamble if you considered the size of the teams working on this stuff and where UT was in development.

Keneda makes a good point saying that these devices are a first choice for the technically impaired and in my opinion are severely overpriced especially considering that problems do persist even on those phones. And it leaves a bad taste in someone's mouth knowing that the next guy bought a 3a for $40US that functions about as well as a Volla.

I did want to talk about that in my previous post but it was turning into a novel.

You are very right, this is extremely subjective. My post was very subjective and I feel in your circumstance, being a Volla owner, you have the right to be angry about these things.

I was merely highlighting that we have to keep our expectations in check and accept the reality of the situation even for the Volla and Pinephone.

In my eyes UT equates to sacrifice; freedom over functionality and performance.... for now. Maybe some day we'll have it all haha.

[Homer3]

@jojumaxx fort messenger I am quite happy with Cinny to connect with Whats app Users, one downside is that I have to start Waydroid every ~10 days to avoid beeing logged out oder whatsapp

[Timespansoul]

Just to give you a better perspective of where I'm coming from, I was willing to gamble $100 US. I entered the game when UT was a bit older and more sophisticated(just this year). I bought a OP Nord N100 for just that. I was willing to lose it all lol. And at a 100 dollars I would say that I am very happy with the transition. However, my expectations were "reasonable" expectations. I did plenty of research before I got into it and with that research came a more reasonable expectation. Having said that, Volla should be much more transparent and honest with their customers. Then again, the browser on the PS4 has always been a POS. In the end we truly decide what we use and if that is not to use it at all you have the right to do so. So don't worry about hurting anyone's feelings if you're being honest. It's your right.

This is a much different perspective that yours and I can empathize with your situation to a certain extent. You've invested much more than I have, more time, more money.

I hope I didn't come off as too aggressive in my first post. If so, I apologize, I am passionate in my pursuit for freedom.

[vince.vs]

An opinion from a UT user since 2016

At the time, I chose a phone pre-equipped with this operating system, developed at the time by Canonical, i.e. BQ Aquaris 5. I was very satisfied with this phone with UT.
It was almost entirely functional, and the translations were complete both in the settings and on the screen.
Of course, a number of technologies evolved, and we had to meet a certain demand for different services. This phone could no longer accommodate, for example, the banking services (which I still don't use) available via Waydroid.
But in anticipation of the evolution of technologies and also because the BQ Aquaris screen was cracked, I opted for a Oneplus 5T, seeing that, in the meantime, the community had taken up the torch from UT, and that for some time now, it had been doing a good job already visible on the BQ 5.
So I bought the oneplus 5T, and used it with 16.04 ota-24 and ota-25.
It was when the system was upgraded to 20.04 that things got complicated.
And here, I agree with @jojumaxx regarding his requests, which are not particularly mine, but in essence, for a user, who wishes to have a functional phone, on the basis of what was for a while a ranking by adaptability and functionalities of a phone model, it can be very confusing for someone who wishes to use the one he has chosen on this basis.
Of course, everyone will come with their bug reports, and their hopes that they'll be fixed as soon as possible.
And this is where, on such essential functionalities that belong to a cell phone, there are bugs that seem not to have been solved for years, as if, these are not as important as having the latest services accessible via Waydroid.
I have, of course, like many others, asked for certain problems linked to the use of my phone model to be resolved, such as audio failures after video recording, better translation (at least for certain international languages) of the phone, the flashing LED triggering after phone calls or sms, or messaging, and it's frustrating to note that - for the average user - of which I am, and who is not a developer, this seems to remain at a standstill, whereas we are at ota-5?
What conclusion can I draw from this, and it's only my opinion?
I'm waiting for ota-6, of course, to find out if any of these bugs have been resolved; I'd already be happy and feel that the request has been taken into account.
I'm not going to invest, as some people do, in several phones to find out which one suits me best, or to have the pleasure of blowing money for nothing when UT should be part of an ecosystem (since it's a phone, either second-hand, or part of a sustainable ethic); it's nonsense, as I've seen it written before, walk around with a UT, and eg. an Android, you can imagine the investment, which would reduce the thickness of my wallet but wouldn't be enough to carry 2 phones, and several phone numbers ... I rather feel that UT's original idea was to offer a sustainable, economical, privacy-conscious alternative. But it's true, one day it'll get tired and have to be changed before it's fully functional, and then, for a newer one, it'll be the same recipe all over again.
People will tell me that the system is in continuous development, which is fine, but even in the private sector, it's in continuous development, isn't it?
I think, of course, that there's a lot of good will in the development of UT, some interesting things that will be, in use, necessary, but also that many developers have their own specificities and interests in their work, of course, they often do it voluntarily, but it's an experience for them (business card), and UT brings together a bit of everyone who puts a bit of everything into it, and no longer concentrates on a requested base and perhaps not on the essentials of a UT smartphone, which for me would be what it should be and remain, first and foremost a system for devices, fully usable for the basic functionalities I've described, well translated, and what it was chosen for, i.e. its simplicity of use and respect for privacy.
This is the type of OS that I think many people would like to use, and that we could promote around us! Proficiat.
So, ota-6, yes, ota-7, if it comes out, we'll see if I try too
Thanks for reading.

[Keneda]

@vince-vs said in I am about to give up and leave:

well translated,

This part is all up to the community willingness, there's no translation team.
For that part, everyone can contribute, no need Dev skill here ^^
See here : https://forums.ubports.com/topic/10312/japanese/2?_=1725326662088

[Bolly]

Hello @jojumaxx,

I hope you find it useful in its Alpha state.

https://open-store.io/app/mimibrowser.fredldotme

[bearbobs]

I will recommend using this with libertine firefox, https://codeberg.org/user0/Mobile-Friendly-Firefox
only issue will be audio and some tweaking for the display you have

[bearbobs]

pmOS also have a similar implimentation: https://gitlab.com/postmarketOS/mobile-config-firefox

[dobey]

@jojumaxx said in I am about to give up and leave:

I am just a Linux user, but UT is the only system I encountered yet, that doesn't allow me to use a package manager freely. Everything would be perfect if that was possible...at least I guess so...

No, it would not be perfect. To yet again reiterate something I've said countless times over the past 12+ years about Ubuntu on phones...

Ubuntu Touch is not a traditional PC Linux distribution, and phones are not traditional PCs.

Being able to install stuff on your phone that is not designed to work on phones, will not make a better phone experience for you. As you said, if you want a laptop, you'd use a laptop. Installing apps designed for use with keyboard and mouse, that don't scale properly, and don't have UIs designed for touch, will not make your phone experience better. It won't make web sites work better. It won't make chat or bank apps available.

[Fuseteam]

@jojumaxx said in I am about to give up and leave:

There's Libertine and Snap support which don't help with the mobile experience. If I want to have a tablet or laptop, I use a tablet or laptop.
Convergence is good as a bonus, if the basis works. It's called Ubuntu Touch, but touchable is nothing. Don't forget, that this is about phones.

I am just a Linux user, but UT is the only system I encountered yet, that doesn't allow me to use a package manager freely. Everything would be perfect if that was possible...at least I guess so...

These two concerns contradict each other

on one hand you feel that snap support is missing the point, on the other hand you feel that install apps with apt would solve the app issue....

Just as apps installed with snaps are not "touchable", apps installed with apt are also not touchable. The snap support is meant to address the issue have with the inability to use apps.

If you have apps that would well on droidian via apt, packaging those as a snap would bring it over to ubuntu touch, that would be up to the developer of that app however.

It is the same with banking apps— we can't have banking apps, if the banks behind those apps don't port them over to ubuntu touch

The outdated browser is a big issue yes, there are multiple effort attempting to solve that, the current rebase to 24.04 might help eleviate that to some degree, alfred's mimi browser is a work in progress that will likely solve the issue aswell, once finished i suspect it'll replace morph altogether, there is also ufirefox which is PoC repackage of desktop firefox with all usability issues.

If Ubuntu Touch doesn't fit your usecase, but other mobile linux distros do— perhaps you could outline those usecases. I would be particularly interested what apps you find useful on droidian that you would like to see on ubuntu touch, perhaps we can get them installed with snap or maybe repackaged for the open store

[developerbayman]

@jojumaxx i feel the same way im a dev for over 30 years .....after banging my head into brick walls over and over again and i complained non stop for a bit .....but really i just had to step back and realize "this isnt linux" ....ask all these guys they will tell you ......i dont have any answers it just is what it is ....the sooner you accept that the better off you will be ......i have like 50 programs i want to port to UT but i keep running into outdated libs and dead links all kinds of issues .......but ultimately the scope of UT versus how many developers is extremely unbalanced and as time goes forward UT seems to be falling behind .......its just not very cool to bust the existing developers ballz as they are doing their best and usually not even getting paid ......i totally get your frustration tho (like im your #1 fan in this) ........if you know how to code forge ahead and add the features you want (will be a learning experience)

[jojumaxx]

I get the feeling this going in a wrong direction.

I DO NOT criticize the state of Ubuntu Touch. I criticize HOW IT IS SOLD!

I studied computational linguistics and developed e.g. natural language processing models etc. Due to personal reasons I couldn't continue doing so. I say this to make clear, I have an understanding of how much work this is.

This said: Dear developers, I DO NOT criticize your work. I know this is often painful and hard and I highly appreciate it.

The only thing to be addressed here is preferences, but that's another thing.

I DO criticise, how the smartphones are sold and I'm talking about those who can be bought new with UT preinstalled.

Now the following scenario:
A random person (using Ubuntu on their PC at home) is looking for a new phone. Maybe something de-googled this time. The person finds out about Volla Quintus. Then the person finds out "hey, I could order it with UT preinstalled" and does so.

Go to the website. They state, that if you do use Linux, the phone is for you because everything will be familiar.
They say, that all basics work.

Now the phone arrives and half of the stuff doesn't work. Now anger and frustration begin, not to mention the money that thing costs.

If there was a real warning, like in the Pinephone Shop, you either don't buy or you know what you're dealing with.

THIS is my point!

So the UBPorts devices site changed a bit. It doesn't claim any more, that the experience is comparable to other OSes on the marked.

When I bought my original Volla Phone, that was true and it was my daily driver for a long time.
I bought the next promoted one, because I thought they wouldn't put it on the marked without improvements, but the experience was worse. And I felt scammed because these devices nevertheless cost a lot if money. And they put phone after phone on the market of which none really works.

So this is about Volla, too.

From now on, like Pinephone, I look at Ubuntu Touch like an enthusiast project.
I do not expect functioning devices when I order them. And potential buyers should be clearly warned.

I still believe in UT and love it. And I hope we will get to the point of working daily drivers again.

I wish I could contribute in cases of development, but due to personal reasons, I simply can't

So again, I DO NOT criticize developers or UT itself but how it is presented to potential buyers namely as working alternative which right now it is not.

This might cause people to loose money they maybe don't have in the believe they buy a working "Linux" phone.

Thanks for reading!

[tuXut]

@jojumaxx
Thanks for writing, I see it exactly the same way...
I would prefer that there are 3 functioning devices (a cheap one, an expensive one and a medium one). I am also very disappointed with the Volla X (it is not a recommended device anymore...!!!) I won't say what I think now...
I still think UbuntuTouch is the operating system I like best for a phone...

[jojumaxx]

@tuXut Thanks.
I once suggested, that the Pinephone (Pro) would have been a good start, since it's "open" hardware.

In my understanding most time is lost in running after the Android Compatibility Layer (Halium).
How much development could go into functionality, usability and features on the Pinephone?

Instead there is (AFAIK) one developer keeping UT on the Pinephone alive. I shortly revived my PP UT CE and want to leave that developer a big "THANK YOU - good job, keep it up" here.

That's sad. And again my question (no one answered yet): Why not the Pinephone? Why running after Android development which seems to go too quick to keep up?
The PPP could be THE UT device and compared to what we have now surely wouldn't be bad...

[tuXut]

@jojumaxx

in my fantasy world, all the developers are working on a Linux phone ... we would have had a 101% functioning device for 10 years,
Greetings and have a nice weekend.

[domubpkm]

@jojumaxx As a non-developer user, I have 10 years of frustration with UT smartphones, and for developers it is the same I am sure ! And it is currently amplified by the absence of a powerful browser. But I still use UT passionately. We are approaching Noël, we will see if there is a miracle.

[AppLee]

Hi @jojumaxx

As far as I know, it is easier and faster to create a port for Ubuntu Touch on an Android than it is on the PinePhones.
You seem to think that the time from contributors can be managed like in a company ; that is simply not true.

When a porter has a desire for Ubuntu Touch on a device they own, they invest their time doing so and share it with the larger community.
And that's probably not time they would have invested in Pine64's devices or another Ubuntu Touch related project.

A major chunk of development time is actually spent on keeping up with Ubuntu LTS.
A effect is the Qt version supported and it lead to the fact that our browser is out of date.
If we had the manpower a better strategy would be to keep up with Ubuntu Stable and update every 6 months, but that is out of reach at the moment.

To answer your question we are not running after Android and there are few ports to newer devices.
The exceptions I have in mind are Fairphone5 and Volla better we are partnering with them.
We partnered with Pine64 but it was very difficult to improve with the drivers provided if I understood it correctly.

I for sure would love to have an open hardware phone well supported by Ubuntu Touch.
But it has some challenges that we could not address without compromising the OS so focus shifted.

Now if you can motivate enough skilled developers to improve the Pine devices situation that would be great and welcome by many I'm sure.
What Oren is doing with the PinePhones is remarkable, you're absolutely right.
And I'm sure he appreciates the gratitude love and if you can donate it's always appreciated...