UB Ports funding
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@stanwood "'Free software' is about freedom, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of 'free' in terms of 'free speech', not 'free beer'." (richard stallman)
"i know it's not the best example in the momet ... but it's a fundamental one..."
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@john-silver Also, the problem is that writing FOSS software is something that "kinda can happen in my free time, under my control" whereas already now UBports Foundation has to run server infrastructure 24/7 that is rented.
Some part of that are sponsored, but in the end if we grow it will always be necessary to communicate: Good services need money, you wont get them for free like the software sources can be.
If everyone agrees that we can kill the infra and everyone can build UT on their own machines then it will become really free ^^
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@flohack
I think it's a misunderstanding,
I say yes, there is nothing free...free software does not have to be "kostenlos"...
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One way to maybe get more donations:
Promoting an option of recurring (monthly) donations prominently on the site and forum. Recurring donations only need one action from the supporter and from then on generate steady incoming cash flow (as long as not actively cancelled by the donor).
The site already has a Donate page, but it could be mentioned more prominently. Perhaps with a total monthly goal and status bar? I think it would help if there is some explanation why donations are needed, what kind of things are funded with the money. The recent thread about our adblocker app is an example of what things cost to keep running, and response also shows that not everyone is aware. Maybe also specific projects could be highlighted for people to donate to, just like was done with Waydroid where funding was succesful.Regular user, UT since 2020, Now: Volla Phone (20.04 Stable)
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@Alter
I think that a total monthly goal and status bar would be great! Also your suggestion that specific projects could be highlighted for people to donate to. -
@dizzy : Thanks!
I don't have the power to make this happen though. Someone involved with forum, site, funding could do it. Don't know who to speak to in this case.
Hope they read this and, if they think it's a good idea too, pick it up to turn it into reality! -
@alter Agreed! Why not take the Wikipedia approach and put a fat banner up that only disappears when the goal is reached. Sometimes you need to annoy people a bit to get them donating.
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Sorry in advance for the long answer
First of all and to answer the question : I'm willing to pay for Ubuntu Touch
Now to address the deeper issue at play here, I see various topics and feelings associated with them.
First of all, I don't like the feeling I have that the community is passive and "asking" the foundation.- It should be clear what the foundation do and can do. For example, hosting, notification system, updates, etc.
- I agree with @Alter displaying the financial need of the foundation is an incentive so we know when to donate and how much and what it is used for.
- Maybe showing off the sub-communities of UBports like Open-Store, Waydroid and some key apps like Teleports, uNav or Pure Maps, uAdBlock, UT Tweak Tool, ... (to only name a few)
My idea is to take the opportunity to make a change to the UBports Q&A format.
- Invite various actors of the community to pitch in and show other aspect of the UBports community than the foundation.
- Show the financial aspect and thanks the sponsors and explain the target once a year.
- "Drive" the community by setting the focus on various topics (where the UBports foundation show was saying we cannot do much because our resources are full, the UBports community show could say there is this interesting topic that needs our attention, this will require this kind or resources, who's up to it?)
I appreciate Dalton's work and I think the visible part (the show) of his work should be his legacy and as such could be a reminder that we (the community) should be caring for each other and sharing the weight so together we can achieve a better Ubuntu Touch.
The UBports foundation is a central component of this community and will hold an important seat at the table but the UBports Show can be widen to the community so we feel more involve and less acting like customers.Also a note on what mentionned @Flohack in another thread.
The "voice" of the show could be a native English speaker for ease of communication, but they do not have to hold all the burden.
Other people can write scripts, a bit similar to what Matteo does for the highlighted apps, so it is not so much of what Alphred, Dalton, Florian or Marius (in alphabetical order and for the recurrent hosts) did during the last couple of weeks, but really a what happens within the community and what should be its future.Thanks for reading and if you like this idea maybe we can start to draft something in a dedicated thread.
My philosophy is that I have to make something positive from a tragedy.
So let's make Dalton proud of us and of what came from the ashes of his burn out. -
@applee I think that is a great proposal
and Id love to help where I can. Why not work out a concept together with everyone that is interested and put something on paper? Maby we could organize a VideoConfrence or a thread (or both) to create a concrete Plan? -
I have waited a day to give enough opportunity for responses, and it is evident that few are willing to make a firm financial commitment to UB Ports. The preference is still for the chancy voluntary donation as and when the fancy takes them, or when consciences are pricked by appeals for money. That's a shame as I believe one should not receive anything without offering something in return, whether that be money, time, expertise, or services.
I shall therefore drop the idea, though for anybody interested what I had in mind was to charge an annual fee for the use of Ubuntu Touch with a proportion of that money passed to developers of successful applications. I appreciate that there are limitations on what the foundation can legally do, but if the existing structure limits what can be achieved then it is time to consider alternatives. Unfortunately there seems to be little appetite for change.
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@cliffcoggin @Flohack has mentioned one of the alternatives above.
@flohack said in UB Ports funding:
The foundation cannot charge services, but a service company could do. Note that you would not pay for the software itself but for infrastructure primarily and our small cloud of services like push server, system-image & OTA etc.
So for such a case someone would found a company and then take over that charging.
You could still run Ubuntu Touch on your device but for example only update it manually.So if somone could work out a business plan that would be one option but also as pointed out there are limitations.
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@dizzy said in UB Ports funding:
@farmer Yes, its usually to much trouble with payments for stuff like this. But, I just found that you can donate in their store. Its just like any purchase. Payment with card and an automatic invoice per mail. Try it!
Just what I was looking for in all the wrong places. Thank you again.
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@cliffcoggin I am giving a monthly fee, financially supporting UBports.
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@cliffcoggin I am also donating. But i can't help but think this is virtue-signaling and I wish I could have avoided that - now I feel compelled to give my opinion. You haven't got straightforward answers because the answer is not straightforward. Just like @Moem I'd be glad to pay for UT. But I also believe it would crush the future of the OS if it was "mandatory". It would doom it forever. I've heard numerous times on this forum that we're trying to build a system that is NOT meant for an "ethical phone" - toting elite but rather for everyone wanting to escape mass surveillance, for one. Making UT paid-for would effectively do that. And for an open source project, losing users mean losing devs in the long run. I see that the project , and the separate dev team that compose it are in dire need of money. But making UT a service you pay for is not the way to fix this I believe. Infrastructure costs have to be able to rely on a steady flow of cash and there's no getting around a donation system. Maybe we do need to make the monthly goals more visible. It would certainly help. Now for the apps, just look at what happened with waydroid: people were hoping that sth could be made to work and paid what was needed. Some of these people most likely never donated for other UT aspects. If UT became paid-for, we might get some sort of expensive "secure phone" like some security companies are selling - only less reliable, and without the flexibility of a community that drive the OS depending on each members' separate interests.
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Patreon is one of the methods to donate that is given on the ubports.com donation page. According to Patreon, 158 patrons are giving $US 1,148 per month to the UBPorts Foundation. Sure, that's not going to pay a salary, but, to me, it is a significant amount of money toward running servers and infrastructure. However, I don't know if that's true, because I don't know what the operating costs are. I am blindly donating because I want to be supportive, not because I am trying to pay an amount that I think the software is worth to me. What are the operating costs? If that was clear, maybe more people would be likely to donate. A graphic popped into my head: a thermometer where the level in red is the annual cost, and the red turns green from the bottom up as donations come in.
The question of charging a fee for FOSS is an old one. It cannot be easily answered. There's a lot of philosophical debate about it in the history of FOSS. To me, FOSS is one of the greatest accomplishments of humanity. A shining knight standing to face the history of industrial economies. I'm just saying that charging money doesn't just slowly smother UBPorts. It's no longer FOSS. It doesn't matter if you charge $US 10 or $US 1,000. It's no longer part of this amazing community of altruistic creators.
Do you want a fee to use Linux? Wikipedia? Every forum and website you use to troubleshoot the problem with that driver that doesn't quite work right in Linux in the latest new bare hardware you bought? When someone posts a solution to a problem in a forum, they do not charge money. They are freely giving their intellectual property. This is all part of this network economy that the Internet is enabling. To me, UBPorts is my best hope for a phone in this economy. I will do what I can to voluntarily give of my time and money.
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@emphrath well yes at some extent I can understand you arguing.
But a few aspects of Ubuntu Touch are unique in the OS world, and it therefore cant necessarily be compared to other projects that are out there.
- We need hardware to exist. That hardware evolves at a stunning pace - Android. Android 12 is out, and we do not even support all aspects of Android 9. That race is breahtaking for us, but whats the alternative?
- We need infrastructure and services. Its not like e.g. a project that just has a static webpage and publishes their software there.
- We are security-relevant. We need to keep up with security updates coming nearly every week (and right now we cannot do this at all since we fell out of 16.04 support). After all we cannot expose our users to this any longer.
We are more like a distribution, not a single, contained, self-paced OS project. In many many cases (maybe over 90%) we depend on upstreams that set the speed of development for us.
Yes, we cannot control what speed of development is healthy for UT. We instead need to chase, every day, every week, after trying to close the gap that constantly opens. Sometimes I feel paralyzed by realizing that the gap never closes, we seem to be only able to stop it opening more for some months. And then, something big happens, and with a big crack the gap starts moving again at rapid speed.
So, its obvious that normal OS rules do not apply to us: We repackage, publish and tweak/modify whats there, and we have no choice to follow those upstreams into whatever endeavour. Its a wicked fate.
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@aarontheissueguy I think this is a good idea and it can work. I was very impressed by the fundraising campaign netzpolitik.org ran from October to end of December. They managed to raise 1 Mio Euro (they had about 400K in October if I am not mistaken). I think this was successful because they made it clear (in their quarterly transparency reports) how much money the need to continue providing their service/product for free for one year without adds. It was impossible to visit their site and not seeing the amount still needed. If the foundation would come up with a clear goal and good justification for what the money is needed each year, I am convinced it would work. Specifically if certain budget items can be personalized (e.g. don't say software developer 0.5 FTE/y, but we do need XX$ per year to support Joe X to work on this and that and advance this and that feature for your phone). I am donating regularly ans would not mind paying a regular fee but I think this OS and it's updates as well as certain basic apps should remain free so that underprivileged users can continue to use it (I am specifically thinking of users in countries where a phones like this might be the only option to some kind of privacy in communication). We just need to motivate those who could contribute more to do so.
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Well guys, you heard Florian, we need to move to 20.04 now,
I propose that all users donate 10 € per month in this year 2022 so UBports can pay more developers, this is necessary, if you don't want to stop drinking 2 beers, ask your boss to work 2 extra hours, so that Ubuntu touch can move forward...
I have already changed the wrong date
Regards... -
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@domubpkm hahahaha thank you
